I'm new to playing Go and in the market to buy a desktop Go program, but having read all the literature and reviews for these respective programs I'm still at a loss as to which would suit me best.

I downloaded MFoG and SmartGo and tried the demo versions of both. SmartGo's interface was very confusing. MFoG seems simpler, but was perhaps not as full featured. Sadly Go++ doesn't have a trial version so I can't try it before purchase, which is a distinct negative when I'm looking to spend $40+ for a program. (I have rejected Crazystones because it requires internet access to play.)

What I want is a program that will allow me to replay and study games and problems but is also powerful enough to practice against when I lack access to the internet. I need something which can help me improve as a player to a reasonable level; perhaps single-digit kyu at some distant point. I don't need an uber-Go player that can beat all other programs; I need one which can teach me.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with these programs, pro or con?

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill

Smartgo pro is my favorite study tool, but it sounds like you want a computer to play against.

For that, I think MFoG is the best of those 3.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill

Where did you hear that CrazyStone required an internet connection? It doesn't. One of the iPhone apps allows playing against the program on a server, but it is just an option and doesn't apply to the computer software.

I have used SmartGo, MFoG, and CrazyStone quite a bit. They each have pros and cons. As shapenaji said, if you're primarily looking for a computer to play against, MFoG and CrazyStone are your best bet. You won't outgrow either of them (in terms of playing strength) for quite some time--they are both very strong.

In my estimation, on my computer, CrazyStone is a bit stronger than MFoG, but not by a whole lot. They are both dan strength. For some reason that I cannot identify, I often enjoy playing CrazyStone more. But, like I said, I can't really explain why. MFoG has MANY more functions than CrazyStone. You can load/save SGF files in crazy stone and edit/review to some extent, and play against it. But that's about it. MFoG has tons more...tons.

SmartGo has a weaker go playing engine, but, in my opinion, superior pattern matching and database management. The interface isn't terribly confusing after you use it for awhile (at least, that was my experience). I load my database of over 100,000 pro games (primarily from my GoGoD subscription), and can search for pro games in which a pattern appears. You can tweak it a bunch too (exclude certain stones from consideration, etc.). It also shows what moves are played from that position, and ranks them in order of most common. You can also have SmartGo only consider games from a certain time period, etc. All of this is great, but it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

According to their website CrazyStone must make contact via Internet every time it is started in order to validate that it is a legitimate copy. Not even Microsoft ever did anything that stupid with purchased software.

I do appreciate your info regarding the various programs and your experience with them. At the moment I am leaning somewhat towards MFoG but I'll wait for a few more days and search for additional reviews.

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill

Ack!! Thank you for pointing this out. They must have changed it with the new version. Fortunately, my 2011 version does not have such a ridiculous requirement. Here's a link for those interested. You say "not even" Microsoft, but Blizzard did this last week with Diablo III--that's going over really well.

Based on this, I can no longer recommend this program to anyone. In truth, you cannot "buy" this software--you can only pay $80 to play on it until Unbalance chooses or its servers go down. One reason I even HAVE a go-playing program is to have an opponent when I don't have an internet connection. This is outrageous.

For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Remi - if you read this: As I recall, you just license your engine to Unabalance and do not have any influence over the distribution (or interface, etc.). And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even mention this to you before doing it. But if you can do anything about this, please do. You wrote a great engine, and Unbalance is causing severe damage. I can guarantee I'll never buy another version as long as it has such an anti-consumer policy.

EDIT: Here is the language from Unbalance's website: "Every time you start Crazy Stone 2012, your PC must be connected to the internet for activation by serial number,but any personal information will not be obtained in this process."

I can't wait to see what anti-consumer idea they come up with next, "Every time you start the program, the testicle clamps must be firmly attached, failure to do so will result in the deaths of your loved ones"

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Do you have a link on Amazon Japan for this? There are a lot of different programs available for playing Go that I have seen here. I did not see one that was called Zen or Zenith, but I could be missing it.

Thank you.

Here's the 2011 version and it's amazon link

Thank you for the link.

The issue has been raised on the computer go mailing list within the past day or two. So Remi should be aware. But if this was done without his knowledge, he may not wish to comment until he has had assessed his situation with the distributor.

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Occupy Babel!

Out of curiosity how good is MFOG for analysis these days, how good is the problem selection and would you recommend it as a playing partner? Thanks.

Nobody has any thoughts or experience with GO++?

I looked at the Amazon Japan page but my Japanese skills (being non-existent) kept me from understanding it. Anyone get the gist of it?

I just looked up exchange rates. Zenith costs over $112 (not including any shipping costs) converted from yen to dollars. Ouch! That puts it at twice my budget.

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill

I have Go++ deluxe, this program allows you to change many options for the programms playing style.
Here a screenshot:


With default settings and the highest Level it plays very solid and surprisingly fast.
Here is a game with the first 27 moves I played against it with all the settings shown in the screenshot.
In this game Go++ is black.


If you are looking for a programm that plays specific style then this is your best bet.
I never played it at lv 5 except the small game above which I did not finish, but lv 1 and 2 where very helpfull when I was a KGS 12 kyu.

I would recommend MoyoGo, which is available again. It does all that you would require. If you want more options related to search, as well as free database updates yearly, I would look into MasterGo. It does not have as many advanced pattern search features as Moyogo, but its has a dynamic whole board search system, which allows much faster analysis than MoyoGo.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

I do and can explain the current status. I not only used to use Go++ back in the pre MCTS days (and when I was weaker) but was helping Michael Reiss by beta tesing Go++8, his attempt at a MCTS version.

The fact that G0++8 has not been released should tell you something. Fairly early in that testing process I had to give "Mick" the unwelcome news that his program was several stones weaker than the new (now MCTS) MFOG. Last I heard from him he had given himself a tine limit to get his program competitive or drop out of the competition of writing go playing programs. That drop dead date is long passed so I think we will not be seeing any more versions of Go++.

Especially since you mention being on a tight budget.....

a) At this point in time even gnugo would be stronger than Go++7 and of course feugo, using MCTS, much stronger. The playing strength of the programs is not an issue at the moment given how weak you say you are but the passivity of the non MCTS programs is. Gnugo or fuego would be free.

b) A program like MFOG is more than just an opponent. The program offers joseki and fuseki tutor, problems, etc. Not cheap but (at least in the past) you pay full price for the program once and then get any future major releases at a steep dicount (and interim upgrades/fixes free). MFOG 12 hasn't had a change release since 1/11 so overdue which means you might want to wait on that, except at your level there would be no need to immediately upgrade to a newer/stronger engine. Also for learning, you can ask MFOG to tell you "why" (why it made a move).

I am less familiar with the "extra" features of the others but that's the sort of thing you want to find out before buying.

What I forgot to mention is that Go++ is only god for playing.

I have to say at my current level I only use SmartGo, it comes with a database of pro games, more than 2000 problems and is very easy to use. It's great for analyzing your games, since it has many helpfull tools.

You can also play against smartgo but it is very weak maybe around KGS 15k (I'm not sure, but I never lost against it even as KGS 12k). The good part is if you have become to strong for smartgo, then you can add other engines like the free gnugo which is stronger.

SmartGo is my favourite and I use it every day

MFOG is great for giving you ideas, and it offers reasons for its moves/suggestions. Of course, nothing is as good as a teacher, but it's very nice. I like it as an opponent to; it can beat me on a "modern" laptop. There are also many options for tweaking the engine.

I find the moves suggested by Zen in many positions to be stronger/more interesting, though it doesn't offer explanations. You can see Zen "thinking" about candidate moves, winrate, etc., which is pretty neat.

I can't comment on MFOG's problems--I haven't looked at them much. (Note that neither Zen nor CrazyStone come with problems.)

I downloaded Gnugo but I'm not enough of a geek to figure out how to install a GUI to make it usable. Do you know where I could find "Install Gnugo for Dummies" so I could figure out how to use it? I'm perfectly willing to pay for good Go program, but if I can find one that does the same job for free then I can spend that money on more Go books instead.

Thanks for the info on Go++; that pretty much knocks it out of the running. While the dan/kyu strength of the program isn't of particular interest this early in my Go career I do plan to improve. More importantly, I want a Go program that offers continuing support and is still being improved upon rather than one gathering metaphorical dust.

That leaves only SmartGo and MFG12. If I had an iPad this would be a no brainer, but I don't foresee one of those in my immediate future.

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Assertion without proof takes up little time; misrepresentation is always beautifully brief. –John Stuart Mill