Life In 19x19 :: #243, Violence vs. Loons

I kept trying to find ways to deviate, because I don't want to give him the star point on the side, but I couldn't really find a good spot. I think I have to take a small consolation in the fact that the bottom left is low.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 0 . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 4 . . 3 9 O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O 7 , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 8 . . . . . . 6 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 3 O . O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I've been envisioning, and I don't feel like I got a big advantage, but I don't feel behind either. So I guess it's what I'll go with.

Does anyone know the modern pro consensus (if such a thing exists!) on if the one space approach to the Kobayashi is a mistake and if two-space high pincer is the correct punishment? When I learnt that (probably in 2007 on Go to China trip from Peter Liu 2p and friends, or maybe earlier) the reasoning was the sequence below: because black can use the peep of 6 to fix the lower side weakness in sente (thanks to the marked Kobayashi stones) he can take sente to extend to 8, preventing a white counter pincer so white's group is a bit useless and can't make up the territorial loss on the lower side by getting a counter-attack on 2. (Now of course this current game has rather more stones on the board so is different, maybe the 8 here being at j4 would actually be an underplay given strong boring f3 in place).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 3 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . 6 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, I later heard (second-hand perhaps not accurate) that Korean pros now thought the outside attach was a playable answer for white against the two-space high pincer, that the magic sword need not be feared as white could do ok somehow (wasn't told sequence). When I tried this on KGS I often got this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 0 . 3 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 X 5 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 8 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . b X . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This usually seemed playable for white to me as although white is small he is settled and black's lower side is low and still has a gap at a and there's the weakness at c too if black doesn't defend there now (which is solid but slow). In fact if black played :b10:

on the right instead of joseki on lower side I'm not sure if the fighting is good for white due to black's k4 stone, in the above line black feels a bit inefficient on the lower side. Even so some games I managed to use techniques like b and crosscut to either break the lower side or kill black's 2nd line group there.

So if this result is ok for white (is it?) should black choose a different pincer like the one-space high? This joseki variation leads to a running fight that makes use of k4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 X O 2 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . O . . 7 | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . a . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Anyone have anything authoritative on this?

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . B . 6 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X 1 3 5 8 , . . . 7 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My feeling is to approach from the top, to keep Black separated there. I prefer the high approach as being lighter if Black strengthen his group with and .

Author:	EdLee [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:11 am ]
Post subject:
Possible continuation from Bill's last variation ? After maybe W has something around the fuzzy area, or (a) direction ? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O X 4 3 . . O . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . O . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? ? ? . . 5 . a . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Loons [ Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
I must admit I'm a little nervous, but I really can't find fault with any of my moves so far. On further reflection, considering how strong white is everywhere I think just living inside the left seems possible, possibly even correct later. I dislike it because I'll lose points and weaken my top corner by doing so.

Author:	Violence [ Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
This one's tricky. I should have a move by tonight or tomorrow.

Author:	Loons [ Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
That's cool. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . a . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . a . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I guess 'a' and 'b' are sort of miai.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

#243, Violence vs. Loons http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10967	Page 3 of 6

Author:	Violence [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I kept trying to find ways to deviate, because I don't want to give him the star point on the side, but I couldn't really find a good spot. I think I have to take a small consolation in the fact that the bottom left is low. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . 1 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 0 . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 4 . . 3 9 O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O 7 , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . 8 . . . . . . 6 . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . 3 O . O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . X O . 2 . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . O . . X X O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This is what I've been envisioning, and I don't feel like I got a big advantage, but I don't feel behind either. So I guess it's what I'll go with.

Author:	Loons [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I like that R17, N16 have a sort of miai for reducing top right. I'm not sure how Violence will try and work with the competing moyos now. Perhaps I can use Violence's reduction of my moyo to reduce his moyo.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
IMHO, an approach to the lower right is the biggest move for black.

Author:	Violence [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X 1 3 5 . , . . . 8 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I think I have to do this... but I'm not sure how to best follow up.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
An easy opening for Black.

Author:	Loons [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I'm perfectly happy. I was wanting some favorable fighting over here to help me reduce black's moyos and develop a territorial game.

Author:	Loons [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Right, I gradually remembered that this is an insane and dangerous way to play to try to get a good result and I was meant to just play a one space high pincer instead for that reason.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Loons wrote: ...this is an insane and dangerous way to play... This may be the best way to play against Violence: make him play defensively early.

Author:	Violence [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X , O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I can't give him the result in my diagram... I think white's shape is too optimal. I really need to change something. After thinking long and hard about this, I decided to go with this. There are a lot of variations, but I'm just hoping there's some way I can complicate the situation and let it spiral out of his control.

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Author:	Loons [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I feel like I have to play strongly here and so cannot eg. sink to the second line.

Author:	Violence [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Alright, into the Magic Sword we go. How much do you know? I don't actually know that much, but it's not a very well documented joseki to my knowledge. Maybe I can get a decent result here. I have a ladder, so he can get a ladder break, but I don't think it's that good for him.

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Does anyone know the modern pro consensus (if such a thing exists!) on if the one space approach to the Kobayashi is a mistake and if two-space high pincer is the correct punishment? When I learnt that (probably in 2007 on Go to China trip from Peter Liu 2p and friends, or maybe earlier) the reasoning was the sequence below: because black can use the peep of 6 to fix the lower side weakness in sente (thanks to the marked Kobayashi stones) he can take sente to extend to 8, preventing a white counter pincer so white's group is a bit useless and can't make up the territorial loss on the lower side by getting a counter-attack on 2. (Now of course this current game has rather more stones on the board so is different, maybe the 8 here being at j4 would actually be an underplay given strong boring f3 in place). Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 3 . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . B . . 6 . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . B . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] However, I later heard (second-hand perhaps not accurate) that Korean pros now thought the outside attach was a playable answer for white against the two-space high pincer, that the magic sword need not be feared as white could do ok somehow (wasn't told sequence). When I tried this on KGS I often got this result: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . X . . 0 . 3 7 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 X 5 9 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 8 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . X . b X . O O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . a . . . . . . O X O O . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] This usually seemed playable for white to me as although white is small he is settled and black's lower side is low and still has a gap at a and there's the weakness at c too if black doesn't defend there now (which is solid but slow). In fact if black played on the right instead of joseki on lower side I'm not sure if the fighting is good for white due to black's k4 stone, in the above line black feels a bit inefficient on the lower side. Even so some games I managed to use techniques like b and crosscut to either break the lower side or kill black's 2nd line group there. So if this result is ok for white (is it?) should black choose a different pincer like the one-space high? This joseki variation leads to a running fight that makes use of k4. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . 3 . X 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 5 X O 2 . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 3 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . O . . 7 \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . X . . a . . , O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Anyone have anything authoritative on this?

Author:	emerus [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
I vaguely recall learning from an authoritative source a few things that you mentioned. I also don't know the continuations from the Magic Sword in this position (should be very exciting to follow) and I don't agree with your variation on the one space pincer. Black can't just give up the ponuki. I see counter-pincers more commonly. There has been resurgence of Kobayashi (and high Chinese) on Tygem and the one space approach response. I am seeing a lot of the outside attach, counter pincers, and variations like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W With or without the 5-6 exchange $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 5 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . 7 . 4 6 X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:	Loons [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 2 . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . 1 . . X 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] The ball is in black's court for the next move.

Author:	emerus [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
I feel like professionals intend to sacrifice one of these groups for leverage on either side. The existence of white f3 may make a difference. This deserves some study. I favor this outside attachment as well.