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#241 : xoxo88 vs Loons
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10678
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Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

We are playing an even, open book/database game.

To simulate nigiri, I'm hiding a random number of stones : You can pick odd or even, then check and play first or let me know to play first.

The easiest way to post the board diagram is to just view and then copy the diagram code from your opponent's last post. Have to be careful not to quote, as this would reveal your opponent's hidden comments. Alternately, programs like Drago can create ASCII board diagrams of the kind used here. Also see Joaz' post.

:white: :white: :white: :white:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: :w0: :b0:
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  xoxo88 [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

i see... i will use drago since im familiar with it. I won the bet so i begin. Have fun! Btw: im from germany, where are you from?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I plan to play a normal game even tough im usually very fighting oriented which is in most cases bad in very slow games but i guess i just have to think deeper now :)

Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

New Zealand! Though my family's Canadian and my Grandparents are from Germany. Have a great game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel very self-conscious about how my next move is going to be tengen. I've been playing it pretty consistently online.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

nice! since it was in the news lately, ive got a political question: how far new zealands immigration politics are linked to australia`s? and what you personally think about it. for explanation: i was part of a military task force in the Mediterranean in the first half of this year and we were very busy about these immigration flows from africa to italy so i got very interested in this whole topic somehow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I play this opening lately quite alot, i kinda develepoded it you can say. its way different to the well known hoshi-komoku fusekis which are quite popular atm even tough it doesnt look like. It leads in the most cases to difficult fighting positions where the players have to be as flexible as possible. since being flexible is my speciality it fits very good to my style. my teachers are a littlebit sceptical about but im willing to defend it ;)

there are alot of options now but the most important thing for me to remind is to avoid the shimari if he dont force me to play it. dont missunderstand me, i really like shimaris but i consider them to be too slow for my style. my whole game is about dictating the direction. aslong im able to do that im very confident about winning the game.

I aim for kakari on the bottom side next, no matter what he plays in the top left corner. After that i tenuki to the right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I made the experience that pincering the bottom side and giving me the corner leads usually to a terrible result for white. Aswell as its not optimal for b to play an extension after kakari. therefor :b3: is not in a good position. Anyway its his brain what has to work a plan out. if he dont mind my moyo will become surpreme and forces him to invade which is exactly what i want.

Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

If you imagine Australia to be the US, NZ is kind of like a tiny, tiny Canada (including the current right wing prime minister having been in power for many years).

In general we're more left wing, relaxed and immigration is easier, but some of my Chinese (student) friends have been complaining immigration/getting a PR is hard at the moment. So I'm not sure.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't like tengen with that 5-3. Let's see where this goes.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

soka, so if your immigration policy is significantly different from australias, why the most people still try to go for the big island? easier to find? or easier to hide, once you reached it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As me he choosed an unusual opening. 5-4 is even harder to handle then 3-5 and that with white. im curious if he can manage to use this stone efficient enough to keep the game even in early stages. I still expect keima in response of my kakari. If he intends to kakari the top, his :w4: will let me pincer in response because i dont like this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


white would have the better moyo and b would need to invade the top in w`s area of influence. thats exactly the opposite of dictating the flow, therefor needs to be prevented.

Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

NZ has a small population and economy, rains unpredictably and is filled with sheep (I live in the cow part though). I'm heading to bed, our time zone here is UTC+13.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm pretty interested to see where this is going.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

and australia is filled with deserts, scorpions and freaky people. im not sure if i wouldnt prefer some sheeps or cows.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think I'm pretty happy with this. I know someone who occasionally plays that opening, but I don't have a great answer for it. My 5-4 is working well, I hope.

Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

It's more normal for white to e3 kick to make black heavy before pincering. Like this black can d3 or d2 to get some eyespace (not necessarily now). Maybe white feared black wouldn't stand and play some extension like k4. Then white would need to f4 and black can play on the top side for a fast-paced opening, but white is thick and ok too.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

btw am i allowed to watch hided observer comments like uberdudes? i guess not? damn my curiosity will kill me once but i can keep the challenge yet ^^.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


since b didnt respond there its w right to attack this stone even tough i look forward to get out of this with a good result. my 5-3 is in a very good position forthis pincering pincer. i expect white to attach next so i will play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . 4 O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . 3 2 . X . . . X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I dont see how this crosscut ends in a bad result for b. the other option is white is cutting directly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . X . . 1 . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This would end in a very good result for b, getting the corner or atleast life in sente and let w stones become overconcentrated. Either way, in the end positions i always dont like the white pincer stone positioning-wise so lets see if he will surprise me with a better response.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

hmm i found a decent answer for white finally: f4. it leads in most cases to an even or slightly better result for w as far i can see. maybe i should have played d3 instantly instead pincering the pincer...

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Yeah, we don't get to read hidden comments unless they're directed to us (until afterwards).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black has more potential than me, but was missing this move : So I played it. Another move I considered was P5, but that seemed slack.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

you got balls. i like.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But i doubt its the right timing to show them. interesting move but it feels like an overplay. after 2 supporting moves at the wings he invades and let me choose the direction. Even tough there is a rule to enter the corner if both wings are taken... he still has this pincer and ill probably end in sente so if i can jump to F5 this pincer looks not so nice. if he want to destroy the shimari he should have invaded instead pincering maybe but still i believe the best move would have been F4. Now i feel comfortable.

I expect he evades my invite to taisha and play kosumi. Prob he feels the urge to get sente and will not follow the normal joseki to come back to E3 or F4 but anyway, Im quite sure that i can punish that hard. maybe more surprising moves?

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

Or fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'd like to have the corner and get out to the middle. Not sure where this is going to go.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

hehe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


trigger:
if r6 -> q7

no surprise :(

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

I might have been refreshing the page every few minutes...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . 2 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black has two abnormal supporting stones, but my J4 is reducing/cramping at least one direction; and if he's thick, R9 is hopefully too close.

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

oh okay, that came unexpected...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . 1 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


maybe i should give up trying to read this guy?

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

I felt like this joseki would still be OK with L3 & R9
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . X O 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:  xoxo88 [ Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: #241 : xoxo88 vs Loons

this is joseki? :o i did not check so far, mb i should... naa, no risk no fun :p

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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