Ask me in ten moves! We'll see by the next few moves how black encloses corners, then we'll know what weaknesses/approaches have been left. If black is so kind as to give us a 3-4, we can apporach, and see how it goes from there. For example, if we get an early taisha (like if B comes under our 5-3), then we can likely take outside thickness. I like the idea of having a plan, but I'd say it's too early to commit.
White Internal:
It's always too early to commit to a plan, but never too early to have one! From the very first stone we play, there is already strategy coming into play. We're aiming at an approach on their top right, while at the same time giving the bottom a secondary importance due to the possibility of an enclosure there. We're probably going for a territorial game at this point, as the 5-3 is a third line stone.
Yilun Yang wrote a book called "Fundamental principles of Go", in which he has a chapter on ranking moves in the early game. He has several classes of moves starting with the most important.
The first class is playing in an empty corner. The second class is A) playing the second move - either a kakari or a shimari - in a corner that already has a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 stone. B) playing on the side in if both corners face that way There is a third class and a fourth class, and they have several subdivisions.
IMHO, this one chapter is worth the price of the book. I recommend it to anyone below pro level.
One soldier suggested approaching the 5-3 stone. It simply is not - according to Yang - as big a move as taking an empty corner. So I've got to go with one of the other moves, if they appear reasonable. FWIW, it is one of the two standard approaches to that stone, so I'm not saying that it is a bad move, just premature
Both of the other two pass the first test of being fundamentally a good move, without considering future flow of the game.
Let's look at the upper one. Assuming that white does their theoretical best and takes the open corner ( here assumed to be a star point because it is fast and they are already a move behind ) it looks like this:
Letting white play 'a' as an extension of his star point is no good for us, so we play the shimari. Their biggest is their shimari with 6. Next, the lower and upper sides are the biggest. It is symetrical and boring but we still have the first move.
The lower one looks like this: ( again, I'm assuming a start point for them )
The biggest moves are 5 and 6. Next 7 is the biggest move, as one shimari and one star point face that way. Move 8 is not as big. We can force this sequence unless they voluntarily make a smaller move.
Note the logic here: Moves 1 through 4 were at about the same temperature: open corners were available. Moves 5 and 6 occur at the same temperature. But move 7 is the only one of its size. Move 8 is a tiny bit smaller.
Let's take another 5-3. This one works to make the enclosure on their lower left less important, as we're already emphasizing the left. It's along the same principles as their move three, which has primary direction on the bottom, to reduce the possibilities for us there. Also, this corner move doesn't leave a good approach for black. The 5-4 approach works best with the direction of their upper right, but the joseki gives us a massive corner.
Similar to Red's, more likely to get influence. Kind of weird, but I've been playing it a lot lately. TJ, are you going to offer Topazg a more normal alternative again? Because Red and I both seem to be enjoying silly craziness. =D
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
Posts: 1125 Location: Allegan, MI, USA Liked others: 18 Was liked: 121
Rank: KGS 9k
Universal go server handle: Jordus
Internal Black chat:
@Joaz [quote=Joaz]One soldier suggested approaching the 5-3 stone. It simply is not - according to Yang - as big a move as taking an empty corner. So I've got to go with one of the other moves, if they appear reasonable. FWIW, it is one of the two standard approaches to that stone, so I'm not saying that it is a bad move, just premature [/quote]
I have noticed a trend starting around the time the book you mentioned was published that white would approach the 5-3 stone(when played by black) over taking the corner... While according to fundamental principles this move may be premature, White wins most of those games that I have observed...
Here is one Pro game for example:
I am curious as to applying said technique against white, with black having the advantage of first move...
Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
For observers:
Aah, what dazzling devilry is this! My spider sense are tingling, and I'm smelling a Black counter-strategy already. So, now we have a 5-3 sort of facing ours. Cute, and a fun idea - I suppose the idea is possibly to approach the lower right soon, maybe as follows:
To be honest, this looks quite acceptable to White if he has another stone in the top left, and locally it's a nice bottom right. So, maybe Black isn't aiming for this, or not just yet. The alternative is a standard approach (at ) which will lead to us pressing down I suspect, as Black will have a flat bottom and White some good development potential. However, because White wants to approach in the top right, my fave response may be hoped for:
Thing is, I really don't like the idea of Black getting "a", so maybe not. At least I can rely on Chew to throw the taisha in here, that could be fun.
So, approaching 4-4 stones is generally of lower urgency than approaching directional corner stones (3-4, 3-5, and 4-5), so I suspect the top right will be low priority for a few moves. That said, White's 5-3 and Black's 4-4 both want to develop the right side, so it's not entirely small - it does depend on what's happened on the bottom right corner. I think approaching the lower left opens up Black's options of what he wants in the lower right, so my gut feeling is to take the top left now, and see what Black wants most. I don't think approaching is out of the question, just not just yet. Another interesting idea I have is as follows:
Now, the last corner is bigger than this .... but it encourages some fun options for White. If Black approaches the lower right, White can fight with the taisha with added support already, and it occupies a big point. If Black ignores white can take the shimari in the lower right with a perfect extension. If Black tenukis White can now approach the lower left:
And this is a good result for White as Black can't get a happy extension. Again, in a taisha, White has a useful side stone for support. Lots of plans, all dependent on Black deciding to pass on move 5, but it's nice having a think about what might get to be played.
Which move of White's do I like most so far? Probably chew's 5-4, just because it's different, the ladder works for us (see dia below) and I'm a bit concerned about giving Black good approaches with the more influential 4-4 in the top right (see second dia below):
Of course, Black may pincer the lower right, but that's a standard 3-4 approach joseki anyway. And he may pincer the upper right, in which case we can play for a fun lower right alternative joseki that keeps us sente (if at all possible) to respond up there. Wowzers, this is going to get sooo complicated
Posts: 588 Location: NY Liked others: 124 Was liked: 46
Rank: 2D KGS
Black internal chat
Jordus, I think in the game that you posted black is essentially forcing white to approach for fear of black getting a shimari in the bottom right and having an ideal formation. In our game we have a diagonal fuseki. For this reason, approaching isn't as important as in that pro game since white can't get a framework anyway. I think as Joaz said you would rather grab an empty corner unless you're forced to approach first.
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
Posts: 5546 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1104 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Internal black chat:
As Jedo said, it appears that the intention is to disrupt the formation of a shimari, which does not apply here. Even if it did, I'd be hesitant to play it myself. Perhaps other pros understand when there are exceptions to Yang's principles, but I'm not going to assume that I do.
Posts: 5546 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1104 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
I have a request for observers.
I'm finding it tricky to tread the path between not saying anything, and naming specific continuations. It is very difficult to say exactly why a move might be good or bad without talking about the moves that follow. I can't always appeal to principles. If I do it too much, I might be giving our team an unfair advantage. But 'too much' is relative to how much Topazg is doing.
I'd like one or more observers to ( publicly? privately? ) tell Topazg and I if we are doing about the same / less / more discussion of future continuations compared to the other captain.
Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
FWIW, and not knowing the answer to your questions for obvious reasons, I'm quite happy with you doing as you see fit. If you give away too much, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. If you give away too little, the experience may or may not be as educational for the soldiers. Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this
EDIT: Was going to add "Besides, the more help you give them, the more sweet our victory will be", then decided against it, then thought I'd put it in anyway
I'm finding it tricky to tread the path between not saying anything, and naming specific continuations. It is very difficult to say exactly why a move might be good or bad without talking about the moves that follow. I can't always appeal to principles. If I do it too much, I might be giving our team an unfair advantage. But 'too much' is relative to how much Topazg is doing.
I'd like one or more observers to ( publicly? privately? ) tell Topazg and I if we are doing about the same / less / more discussion of future continuations compared to the other captain.
Thanks -JB
tough request. read through the thread again. I would say move 2 and move 3, the captains are giving more or less the same amount of instruction.
Posts: 5546 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1104 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
To observers:
topazg wrote:
...Trying too hard to match the other captain I think will be a detriment to just doing what you think is the most informative way of posting. Game balance isn't that important for a game like this ...
I disagree with this, so at least tell me. Whether or not you tell Topazg is up to you.
I'm trying to suggest something more conventional, but the game is already so unconventional, that I don't know what would be best. I like this more than the other 3-4 though. 4-4 would of course be a safe choice.
Well, I nearly decided to take TJ's suggestion, as something as standard and conventional as a 3-4 might be a delicate balance to the interesting-ness going on elsewhere. I am especially happy with the side as Black's not got a great reason to want to approach it from the side presented to him, and I therefore much prefer it to the other 3-4 up there (where the approach works nicely with the 4-4 in the top right). However, there are other valid approaches too, such as approaching low which seems fine to me.
As a result, I want a game where we can't possibly fall back on complacency, and something a bit different is what I want to aim for. I've gone against redundant's 5-3 because a) we already have two of them , and b) because I don't actually like giving Black the approach sides from the top. I'm sure it's fine really, but even though the approach at E16 is locally good for White, it works better with his 4-4 than the similar approach in the lower right does with his 5-3. As a result, it's making me squirm a bit.
Chew's 5-4 I really can't get my head around how it will work out at all, but it's going to create a big influential game that sounds kinda fun, and walking into the deep abyss is a great way of getting those Go neurons firing.
No-one wanted to offer the shimari in the lower right (which I wasn't keen on anyway), or an approach move in the lower left (which could be interesting, but perhaps poorly timed right now). Interestingly, I would probably have chosen the top left hoshi if it was my choice, simply because the simple balance it leaves a) gives me a better choice of approaches in the lower left, and b) doesn't seem to give Black the chance to force the direction of play anywhere other than the lower right, which I already have a few plans in mind for. However, I'm happy enough with this
White's latest move seems questionable to me, according to direction of play. The new 5-4 stone leans towards D10, as does our shimari in the lower left if we make one.
This means that now us getting 7 is terrible for white, as it is the direciton that both of our stones on the left side want to go. Next white may choose between a b c or d, but all of these are gote and result in us getting either a or b ourselves. It's possible for white to prevent this by splitting right away:
However if this happens than we just approach the lower right as shown. this is an ideal approach for us and will be difficult for white to answer. Furthermore we still have points such as a to aim at. Therefore, although approaching the lower right immediately is certainly tempting, my suggestion is to enclose:
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
Posts: 5546 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1104 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
For observers:
EDIT: and teammates
According to Yang's principles mentioned earlier, there are no first class moves left, but three second class moves: kakari or shimari in asymetrical corner. For a tie-breaker, I pulled out a ruler ( shown here in red circles ) to get an idea of where the biggest oba is. Three of the four sides are 11, one is 10. So, prior to doing any reading, I have a slight preference for the top left and the bottom left because they are at the intersections of 11-open-space sides. The lower right trails very closely with one of 11 and one of 10.
Actually, I agree with Jedo's analysis completely and would play his move in a game. To add to that, a territorial move like finishing a shimari makes sense to me in a cross fuseki, since it's harder to make use of influence oriented stones to build a big moyo.
But to give the general some options, I am picking this. It's consistent with the orientation of our southwest stone. If white approaches that corner, we'll get influence facing the bottom side, and this stone will work well with that.
because I like playing with the pro database, here's some stats on this unusual fuseki:
Move = number plays / total = percentage 1 = 27528/51716 = 53% 2 = 148/27528 = 0.5% 3 = 1/148 = 0.7% 4 = 1/1 = 100%
I was surprised to find the 3-5 is so rare: for move 2 it's even less popular than 3-3. For move 3 in this position it is similarly rare, although the sample size is much smaller. Of course, the fact that a move isn't played much by pros doesn't necessarily make it bad, especially for amateurs. My guess is most mistakes at this stage tend to be washed away by the midgame...
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum