I apologize, i pick 5-4 then

So, we're going to play the 5-4. It has some interesting continuations, none of which I'm going to show you. Reading practice is good.

I want to play something more or less normal, but still leave things open for some fun later. The 5-4 gives that opportunity. The general idea, though, is to try and play for some influence.

However, there's something to keep in mind ... tengen limits our influence as well. We don't want to fall behind in territory, because we will NOT be making very many points in the center (unless we kill the tengen ... not an easy feat).

This is an interesting exercise for captains, I think. Especially with DDK and close-to-DDK soldiers, I hope I'll be able to balance a competitive game with good lessons for my soldiers. I don't want to give too much to them, of course. I want them to think about their moves, and I hope my comments will provide them with ideas for improvement.

The more I think about it the more I believe that is the only choice black has. It makes miai out of the two corners that are left and, because of its symmetrical nature, makes it hard to exploit. Following the corner-sides-center doctrine I think the correct play would be at (a), but then white would get a nice looking moyo by playing in the other corner. Therefore I propose This is also a Trigger to move things along: if blacks next play is the opposite 44 I nominate C6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The reason being that it makes black less likely to play (a), because that would mean he would have a group in his territory. That means we might have a chance to play it ourselves . If black tenukis I plan on double approaching.

Rafa, you just repeated my nomination - I think the idea is to give the captain 3 different choices, even if you happen to agree with one of the previous nominations. Still, it's too late now, and no damage has been done (although I suspect Marcus may disagree...)

Far be it from me to argue with our captain, who's a good 7/8 stones stronger than me, but I think he's far too scared of the tengen stone. As far as I can see, its only real concrete value, at this stage, is in making all ladders which head for the centre work for black. That's a bit annoying, but hardly the end of the world - we just have to take care to avoid any joseki or other sequences involving ladders. Although, we could always have fun by first playing an attachment to tengen as a ladder-breaker

I take the point that we're going to need to take some territory at some point, but we're guaranteed to get at least one more corner, and can always play 3-4 or even 3-3 in that if we're desparate for some quick cash. (Or, unless black approaches early, play the 3-4 underneath our 5-4.) I just think it's a bit ridiculous, at least for kyu players like ourselves, to get scared and have to think about treading ridiculously carefully after black's move 1

I can't believe we're already on page 2 of the thread before 2 moves were played, for one. And it appears that we have no observer comments yet, so it seems we've put off the audience as well. Shame, as I would have thought topazg would have a comment or two - he seems to like these kind of weird fuseki

Stick with the plan offer them a diagonal. 4-4 makes more sense now that they've played a weird, high move that I'm unfamiliar with. The flexibility allows for maximum options after White responds.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

3 moves in and this game already rates about 9/10 on my bizarro meter.

I'm inclined to think a 4-4 play is inconsistent with tengen, since the idea of tengen is to fight but a 4-4 wants to build influence. Also white played an interesting move, so us playing a simple move seems to send white the wrong message. It's like they called our bluff and we folded. If we wanted a simple game, tengen seems like the wrong choice to start off with.

With that said though, I really have no idea what a good move is at this point. I'm torn between just taking their corner out from under them, or playing a 3-4 in one of the open corners. Also, my impression is that the top will be more important than the right given the direction that white played their stone, so I'd prefer d16 to q4 for a 4-4.

I think my choice is this (a being the other move I was considering):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white approaches, calm response. If white makes a base we can take the corner/threaten their base, eyeing an approach from the bottom left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . 7 . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if they take the corner we approach from the left and force white to live in the corner or run... right out towards our tengen stone! Maybe 7 at x to threaten their eye space a bit more severly, but I don't like white playing at 7 in that case. Still eyeing the invasion at a soon.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to approach immediatly.
Lower would be capped I suppose, countering our tengen.

Ok, let's go over the suggested moves.


After white 2, white has a good corner, and black's stone is too close to white's strength. Also, white is too settled for my tastes, as we're looking for a fighting game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This isn't a bad move, but I feel like this is too territorial. I'd actually really like a 4-4 stone in this corner, though. 4-4 stones get influence, which helps a great deal in fighting (influence != moyo). We don't want to be playing for large moyos, but influence is great for the fights we're going to start .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We're going for this move, it prevents white from developing their 5-4 stone along its primary direction of play (the right side). It's also high, which will help us in fights to come.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One thing to keep in mind: our tengen stone gives aerial support for if we want to invade to break up white formations.

My suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This 3-4 seems good to me. There are few joseki from an approach which end in sente for black, so they will probably play a move in the last corner, allowing us to complete the shimari - which then seems to be facing the right way to potentially give us a very promising position along the top.

In more general terms, I think a 3-4 is probably the right way to go here, as Marcus has already indicated that we need to think about taking some territory soon, which a 4-4 or 4-5, or even 3-5, don't really do so well. And a 3-3 just feels wrong - although I have no experience in playing it (it's always felt horribly unambitious to me), so perhaps I'm unfairly dismissing it. As to the choice of this corner rather than the other, I'm not sure our 5-4 will work so well in a bitty diagonal fuseki.

This is all off the top of my head, though - I think I've chosen a decent move, but I'm sure there are plenty more good ones (perhaps better ones) for Mnemonic and Rafa to suggest instead

I will go with a cross position play. The reason being that it will limit blacks’ moyo potential. As a specific play I choose he 44 point because it is influence oriented and by being symmetrical black has a harder time approaching it. I nominate D4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I say we let black make that triangular thing and take the corner at the top with 1.
Black´s moyo is not threatning, besides this way we can build up the top

Okay team, I chose the 3-4 in this direction. It's harder for Black to approach this stone, since to do so means jumping into the top area. The other 3-4 stone gives Black a nice approach later.

As for D4, it's an interesting idea. However, I'm not fond of allowing Black to take opposite corners plus the tengen. That's simply my personal preference.

We've begun up on the top of the board, and I expect Black to take the remaining corner. It's time for us to think about how we want to deal with Black's formation. So far, there's enoguh room to invade later if we need to, but a premature invasion is going to cost us a lot, I think. Throw some ideas around between the three of you and see what ideas you can come up with.

To be honest, when/where to start an invasion/reduction is one of my weaker points. We'll see how this goes ... once more into the breach, my friends!

I'm slightly surprised Marcus has chosen this direction. As he says, it does make a black approach less attractive than with the move I suggested, but the reason for this is that our shimari is (I think) considerably more attractive for us in that case than for the move chosen. And, as I said, I'm not sure that black can approach straight away and keep sente (certainly not with the high approach - although I'm not familiar with the low approach to a 3-4, so perhaps that would have been possible for black). Marcus: if there's more explanation that you'd like to add to explain your choice to us soldiers, then feel free

As for future plans, let's wait to see what black does - I too expect a play in the final corner, but there are a few different plays black could try there. But the obvious moves which come to mind are simply completing our own asymmetrical corners - E17 would be the stereotypical move (but, as I implied above, I don't like it as the left-hand side doesn't look likely to be the "interesting" side, to borrow a phrase from strong players which I don't really understand ), with E16 perhaps being possible, and Q17 also being in the running. Or perhaps a more ambitious (but thinner) enclosure aiming at making more of the top side - F17 or even G17, perhaps?

As Marcus says, I don't think we want to go about invading black's framework straight away. Let's at the very least get ours sorted out in some way first

I was ordered to post some thoughts, so here they are. Teammates: please feel free to improve/criticize any of these.
I am currently working on the assumption that D4 is blacks’ next move. It is the only open corner left and a 44 works very well with the current black stones. We would then get this: I have marked areas of interest.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . b . . . . . c c . . |
$$ | . . O , a . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . d . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Option A: This is really an interesting area and I think black will try and play here next. In contrast to the invasion at (c) it either sets up a nice position on top, or starts a complicated fight in which they can use their Tengen stone efficiently. But for white an enclosure just seems too slow as it would allow black to race around the board, taking big points.

Option B: At first I hadn't considered this, but now it looks really interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit more.

Option C: It is a nice exercise to look at possible continuations from the invasions, but I think this area is not that urgent for either white or black right now.

Option D: This is a normal splitting attack and here is a possible continuation. We have a semi stable group in blacks’ area of influence. Now our captain remarked it would probably not be too good to invade right now but this result seems acceptable to me. I have also considered several other black responses and I think this is the best they got.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 if 6 at 7 then we play at 6
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . 1 . 4 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Option E: If you don't like the above you still have the option of just approaching a corner. Black has several option of responding of which I think the pincer and the attachment are the most interesting.

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[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 2 3 . . ,
$$ | . . . 6 5 1 . C C .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

could also be at the points, but then black get's a very stable group and a huge corner. We would get sente and a group in blacks’ territory. I don't really know which one is better; I guess the decision can wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 3 . 9 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . 8 5 7 . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 6 0 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 3 X O O 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . 2 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

We offset the influence of the black tengen stone nicely, but out group is floating with not really a lot of eyes. It's not optimal, but if you consider the picture if you jump in the corner instead it looks decent to me.

Option F: Approaching from that side just looks wrong, black can play high and start building a very scary framework while our group stays low with no real impact on the game.

The easiest explanation that I can see is that our captain thinks the enclosure is too slow. (which I agree with) If that is the case, then it would be better to place the komoku in a way that favors us and not them. For example, how would you respond to this?

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[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

About invading: I don't know why everybody is against it. Now, following standard go theory you should invade at the last possible moment to give your opponent the hardest time to use the resulting influence efficiently. This comes from that the value of influence diminishes of time while the value of territory stays the same. At the start of the game you have a lot of time to use the resulting influence of a joseki, while the resulting influence of a fight in the middelgame might be hard to use because of the surrounding position. This might work for pros but it doesn’t work for your run-of-the-mill ddk.
1. DDK's don't know how to invade
2. DDK's don't know how to use influence.
That’s why I try to invade as early as possible to maximize my chances of living, not worrying about the resulting influence. The worst thing that can happen is that I invade at the pro timing, but miss a pro tesuji and die. Now my opponent has the territory AND the influence.

My main gripe with playing anything on the top, is that I am afraid that black might play san-ren-sai and then the board starts to resemble this:

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[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, I think this is considered universally bad for white because of the huge temperature drop after black gets the last star point, but luckily for us the board looks slightly different

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[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . M . . . |
$$ | . . O , M . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After we play , the left side hoshi is huge. If black plays san-ren-sai, the board will start to look like this. Now we have 2 defects in our moyo, but if black invades at those points he will be fighting on OUR turf. That way we have already negated most of the tengen stones usefulness. Additionally we have a good approach at but because of our 4-5 stone, black doesn't have a similar one. What I'm trying to say is that a play around the upper hoshi starts to look really feasible. (Now I only have to find the correct position)

At the moment I am leaning towards either J16 or J17 because of their relationship with the 34 point. The question is: high or low?
After some thinking I got to the conclusion that high might be slightly better. first of I don't like this shoulder hit

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[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . 5 2 1 0 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . B . . . . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Secondly, as explained above they can't really allow us to take that side hoshi at so I think they are going to play like this:

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[go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , C . . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Now if we just wanted to defend at then the lower variant would make more sense, but black would then just pull back and white will be plaster against the top while black has the whole rest of the board. That’s why I think we need to pincer and by playing high we put just a tiny amount of more pressure on black. After this I have no Idea what's going to happen, but be are fighting again on OUR turf, rendering the tengen stone useless

(Are we on the right track, captain?)

I think white is in a pickle here. You normally respond to a wedge by pressuring the stone from one side while building territory and then defend the other side. Let’s try this here:

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[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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[go]$$Wcm8 14 somewhere on the right side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 8 . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 4 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . 6 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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[go]$$Wcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . X . . X O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 O , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 6 . . . 4 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'm not sure about but black has a really strong group and can now freely attack the white stone. There is also still some aji in the corner stone. Alternatively white could try to extend from the 4-5 stone but then this just looks terrible

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[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . X . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black extends calmly and destroys much of whites’ moyo potential on top. Additionally whites corner territory is wide open.

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[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Maybe white should just protect the corner, but then black can tenuki and play here to undercut the corner.

Yup, I figured they might go for that corner next. It seems like they are going to want to develop along the top now. I hate to leave an empty corner, but maybe we should approach now, before they get a change to develop too much.

Here's my suggestion:

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would expect something like the following (because that's about the only joseki-ish sequence I know for this approach...), but I think instead of the typical move around a we should instead go ahead and invade the right corner at 11 or x, since tengen should support the three stones in the left corner. Alternatively, we could use 11 to play in the last corner and come back later to the upper right corner and top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . a . . . . . 7 x . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was also looking at this, and it looks like it gets very complicated but with tengen I think the fighting would favor us. But I'm not sure it prevents white from developing along the top like I think we want to, so this is probably not a great choice.

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[go]$$Bcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 1 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is precisely the move I was looking for. High to go with tengen, and it prevents white from building a framework on the top.

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping on this before I got 3 suggestions, but it was going to be this move all along.

Please forgive me for getting in first with what I feel is the "obvious" suggestion:

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[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The usual josekis then give us a fair bit of corner, and sente to make the first play in the final corner. Black gets a fair bit of the top, but our 4-5 still has plenty of space to do useful stuff, so I think this is a decent enough result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 4 . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(I don't necessarily mean these exact moves, but anything along these lines seems fine for us). Of course, black might play the avalanche instead - at which point I get way out of my depth (Mnemonic seems to know his joseki quite well though ). (Would seem a brave thing to do with DDKs choosing the moves for you though.)

Other options which might be better would be some kind of pincer, or a tenuki to either the last corner or to support our 4-5 in the upper right. I'll let my two team-mates choose which they think best of these options

I guess Redundant was really keen to play this approach immediately, seeing as he only got one suggestion. It's clearly going to lead to a fun game, but I'm far from convinced it was black's best choice.

Actually, I think I've changed my mind. The above isn't bad for us, but perhaps it's a bit too easy on black. On second look, I'm filled with the urge to pincer. But I don't know any of the 3-4 pincers at all. I'll stick with my original suggestion, as I feel it's definitely an option, but I hope one of my team-mates can come up with a good continuation from a pincer suggestion.