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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #561 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:37 pm 
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jts wrote:
Question for black:
Looking at the board now, do you still think that letting your lower right corner get sealed off from the center would have been the end of the world?


Yes.

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #562 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:29 pm 
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It would have been awful. The biggest problem is that we had to live in gote, which really was because we had shape problems on our way out, IMO. If we had somehow been able to leave the corner in sente, we'd be up to our asses in candy and unicorns right about now.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #563 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:08 pm 
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For observers only ( good stuff for beginners here ):
fwiffo wrote:
\It would have been awful. The biggest problem is that we had to live in gote, which really was because we had shape problems on our way out, IMO. If we had somehow been able to leave the corner in sente, we'd be up to our asses in candy and unicorns right about now.


Fwiffo is correct, but it is actually a little more complicated than he describes. Sente/gote are not absolute terms, although we tend to treat them as such. Sente is relative to a given position.

If there are 10 point moves available on the board, and I play a move that threatens to make 5 points, it is gote, for my opponent can profit by ignoring it. But if the biggest move elsewhere on the board is 3 points, and I make that same 5-point threat, then it is sente, for my opponent will take a loss if he ignores it.

Sente is relative to the situation. And the situation changes. ( There are lots of ways that it can change. The most certain change is in the value of the biggest move: it tends to steadily decrease. See Bill's SL post on 'temperature' at http://senseis.xmp.net/?Temperature )

The relevance of this is that we do have some threats over on the right. They just aren't big enough right now. But they will be sometime. As the board gets more crowded and the valus of available moves decreases, suddenly they will have to go back there and defend. FWIW, I hope that we get back there first. We may be able to cause them some serious trouble.

If we get a strong presence in the top center, such that their Q15 and R15 stones can't run westward, then we may be able to start a deadly attack on the right.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #564 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Black Chat

I ended up heading to starbucks tonight to study and spent some of that time on this game...

a move I became interested in..... i also had previously suggested (a), but as i looked I think (b) may be a better move as it gives black the chance to make a wall that will allow us to use the cut at (z) (provided white cuts at x, if white plays y we create a bamboo joint at a, with the bamboo joint in pace we can run for life or then play the shoulder hit..) to create a wall we can use to force life of our groups....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X x b . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O y . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . z . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #565 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Bump

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #566 Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:04 pm 
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jedo?

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #567 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:27 am 
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Sorry guys, I was at a tournament yesterday. Suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . 7 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like Fwiffo's suggestion to, but my concern is that it forces white to lock up a lot of points possible. This take points for us while starting to bring the aji of saving those stone to life due to some pressure on white's four stones. I would go for a wider extenstion, but it seems dangerous

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #568 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Black Chat
so... fwiffo chose (a), jedo (b), now I just need to decided between (c), (d), and (e)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . b . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . d . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . e . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #569 Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:49 pm 
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To observers:
Jedo wrote:
... I would go for a wider extension, but it seems dangerous.


So? We're behind. We have to play aggressively.

Not only is a wider extension bigger, but if we play it just a little bit further and/or a little bit higher it becomes a ladder breaker for the ladder coming from the center of the board.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #570 Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Black Suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X a 7 . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I dont like the white push at (a) too much, but i do like getting the bamboo joint if they play anywhere else... the push wouldnt be the end of the world either... i can see it working out after a fight in a way... hopefully i read that side right..

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #571 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:15 am 
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Whilst we wait for a move, I just thought I'd encourage you guys to speed up with the following bit of news on our team:

Red is now 1d
chew is now 1k
TJ is now 4k

I'm barely qualified to be the captain any more - just sayin'... ;)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #572 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:22 am 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: Oops, sorry about the sleeve tesuji.

The immediate attempt to live just gets us killed. The circled stones are too powerful. If we had something around 'a', maybe we could start a liberties race. But even that is difficult because they can make moves like 'b' that gain eyespace for them. If we had both 'a' and 'b', it might be tenable. Or if we had something around 'c' we might try running. But now it is premature.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X b O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . a . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X 3 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 7 . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . W O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . W X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W . c . . . . W X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Move 1 below is a reasonable move under normal circumstances, but we are behind. They can just reply with 2, and because of their strength on the left, they get more from the 1-2 exchange than we do.
However, if the suggestion had been 1 at 2, that would be a different story. Not only would it be sufficiently aggressive toward the left, but if would be a ladder breaker for a ladder coming from the middle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


An approach from the bottom is also a reasonable move, and I think that Fwiffo nailed the exact location.
If they let us play at 'a' next, we can neutralize much of their strength. If they take 'a', we can take 'b', which still neutralizes some of their strength. It also removes some of the aji of a white invasion at 'c', which has worried me for a while.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 b . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . c . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In summary, if I were playing it, it would be a tossup between a reduction from the bottom and a reduction from the top. But the choices that I am given are a just-right reduction from the bottom, and a too-conservative reduction from the top. So we are going with the reduction from the bottom with D8.

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #573 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:38 am 
Gosei

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topazg wrote:
TJ is now 4k

You must know something I don't :)

(I was briefly 4k @ kgs, but now I think I'm 6k or something)

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #574 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:41 am 
Gosei

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Joaz, I think we would like to keep our stone @ C12

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #575 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:43 am 
Gosei

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My first instinct is D9, but I'm not sure if it's best, so I don't suggest it just yet

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #576 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:06 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey, you don't get to remove our last move!
White internal chat:
Well TJ, if you're not suggesting D9, I am. Separate, stabilize, all of those good things.

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #577 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:33 am 
Lives in sente
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DGS: redundant
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I guess D9 is already taken, so I'll recommend making a ko in the corner with c18.
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #578 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:21 am 
Gosei

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WIC/suggestion:
Since D9 apparently was the best choice both locally and globally, but it is now taken, I will suggest something entirely different: M16

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #579 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:27 am 
Gosei

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Hey, captain, we have given our suggestions almost a week ago! It can't be so hard to decide, can it? :razz:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #580 Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:33 am 
Tengen
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I apologise, I've not been around enough and it slipped off the bottom of my unread posts list :P

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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Yeah, this makes sense, though it does also commit us to preventing Black getting a huge lower left corner. Still, we can always probe and start red's ko ;)
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