Teamovich 2

Rafa · **#81**

WIC

robinz · **#82**

WIC:

Rafa is right about the weakness at "a", as far as I can tell (if black plays there our group becomes a floating eyeless baseless lump* :sad:

), which confirms my suspicion that we should be settling first. But can we do it in sente? Rafa's sequence clearly doesn't do that. But perhaps it's good enough, as our group is then definitely alive (as far as my mediocre reading can tell), and we have kind-of-miai of attacking black's C12 stone and C17 group. Not that the latter looks too easy to attack profitably, now I think about it, which brings me on to my next point:

Do we need Rafa's 12/13 exchange? It looks rather aji-keshi-ish to me. On the one hand, it does expand our eyespace, but I'm not sure it's necessary to live. And unless it is, I really don't want to play it, as it just forces black to strengthen his group - on the present board it looks possibly vulnerable (I'm not sure we can do much to attack it sensibly yet, but given the right conditions...), whereas on Rafa's diagram it looks fairly thick and indestructible.

I think we can live, or at least make our group healthy enough to survive, by playing B14 straightaway - or C14 preferably (why play on the second line unless forced to?). Probably there are better moves too, but I'm not seeing them if so. The only other one to occur to me is C13, which has the advantage of being sente, but the major disadvantage of forcing black to strengthen his stone. I will regret this if black ends up with a strong position in the lower left.

Whatever we do, I'm fairly convinced it has to be in the upper left.

Anyway, no suggestion yet, but some more thoughts. As I've already said though, I'm way out of my depth at the moment and these are probably total rubbish :-?

*EDIT: actually, now I look again, I'm not convinced it's such a worry. The above was written assume we'd respond at B16, but if we simply cut it off at B14, can't we capture it before it causes damage? If not, can you (either Rafa or Mnemonic) show some sequences to demonstrate why this doesn't work?

Mnemonic · **#83**

WIC

robinz · **#84**

@Mnemonic (WIC):

I'm not sure why you think I just want to settle "for settling's sake". But since you say that "All we do by settling is giving black tons of influence in sente while boxing us in", let me make absolutely clear that I agree that doing that (letting black seal us in, and in sente too) would be absolutely hideous. But I don't think we're in danger of being sealed in at this stage, thanks to the D14 stone. You yourself have given a prime example of exactly what we need to avoid in your first diagram, which you for some reason call "OK for us" (but then do say we need to avoid). If that happens the game is as good as over - we're alive, but with second line territory and what, 8 points in the corner if we get all the good endgame follow-ups in, while being totally 100% sealed in. (And black with thickness beyond their wildest dreams.) All of the black team would be absolutely laughing if we allowed that to happen.

We may well have better moves in the sequence you show, but I don't see anything obvious. Thus, this adds to my conviction that something needs to be done in this corner.

And, I nearly forgot to say, by settling here we ought to be able to create good follow-ups against either black's lone C12 stone or his upper-left group - "making a fist", as you say.

I feel one of us needs to make a suggestion soon. I was going to make one of my own, but I don't see a move I like yet :sad:

I was about to suggest C13, which fixes a lot of our problems and in sente. You haven't explained precisely why you dislike it so much, but I'm also not keen for several reasons - it strengthens black's stone, making it almost certain that they get a strong position on the left side which will probably work rather well with their tengen. Further, it leaves our group looking a little overconcentrated to my eye (but this could be my DDK tendencies showing themselves up). Especially as it doesn't totally fix all the aji.

Your suggestion of D12 also looks interesting, but my reading isn't up to figuring out how the play would then go. It's open to the same objection as C13 is - it's attaching to a weak stone, and thereby forcing it to get stronger.

I'm probably going to end up suggesting one of C13 and D12, unless someone comes up with something much better. (Although if someone does, they should suggest it themselves, of course - so unless I get some inspiration myself I'll probably still end up nominating one of these moves ;-)

)

Mnemonic · **#85**

WIC (answering robinz)

Quote:

I'm not sure why you think I just want to settle "for settling's sake"

Sorry, but your first post seemed to focus a lot on settling. I too think that we have to strengthen our group, but it seemed like it was your first choice whereas it is my last

Quote:

You yourself have given a prime example of exactly what we need to avoid in your first diagram, which you for some reason call "OK for us" (but then do say we need to avoid)

The example is somewhat joseki (at least it's the one played out in the BB game; of course they had already pincered the black group) That's why I think the black move is so hard to answer. If black cut's we end up with the same sequence that would have followed my move but without the benefit of a pincer already in place. :sad:

Although it seems so unreasonable we could consider tenuki because our corner is safe and if we don't find a good local continuation it might even be better. (on the flip side: Black would be laughing there ass of :sad:

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 for reference $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . $$ | . 7 O 6 X . . 1 . $$ | . 3 2 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Quote:

I was about to suggest C13, which fixes a lot of our problems and in sente. You haven't explained precisely why you dislike it so much, but I'm also not keen for several reasons - it strengthens black's stone, making it almost certain that they get a strong position on the left side which will probably work rather well with their tengen. Further, it leaves our group looking a little overconcentrated to my eye (but this could be my DDK tendencies showing themselves up). Especially as it doesn't totally fix all the aji.

It should fix most aji and I think someone should nominate it since it is the most reasonable local move although it hurts to play it. As an example of why I don’t like it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 2 is the normal move, (a) is commonly \nregarded as mistake $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . X . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . a . 2 . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

WIC (Variations)

WIC (outside-the-box thinking)

Fact: after the pincer the cut becomes very sever and defending it the normal way does not feel right.

hypothesis 1: C13 is not that bad a move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . 5 . . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks like the probable continuation. We have about 8 points and black about 5. We are in the center but don't really have any direction in which to develop whereas black does (at (a), and it is semi sente) Black has a weak group that we could pressure, but with the tengen stone we won't get very far. We have sente.
All in all it doesn't seem so bad with 6-8 being my continuation.

hypothesis 2: because our corner is alive we can play on the outside in a location of our choice and get a favorable fight after the cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Possible next move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . b . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

D from before looks like the move to do that. I've also looked at (a) but it seems too weak and at some pincers around (b) but the timing seems of.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . $$ | . . O . X . . . . $$ | . 4 3 0 . . . . . $$ | . 9 5 O . . . . . $$ | . 7 6 8 . . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Now moves around (a) seem good $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . $$ | . 2 O 1 X . a . . $$ | . O X O . . . . . $$ | . X X O . . . . . $$ | . X O O . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . .[/go]

robinz · **#86**

White suggestion:

Well, it's been a long time with no discussion now - and still no formal suggestions (unless Rafa's was one - I'm not clear on this). In the interests of getting the game moving, I will go ahead and suggest the move I already suggested I would:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've already said why I'm a bit unhappy about this, but I really don't see anything better. I do think we need to protect against black playing a next, which this does (B15 will now connect everything up underneath), and this move is the only way I can see to do it in sente. Black D12 is I think now forced, and afterwards I would suggest playing in the lower-left corner, perhaps with a 4-4. (But I'm not committed to this, and we'll get to discuss again.) The problem, of course, is that black is going to get a nice solid group on the left-hand side - which is especially bad as, rereading Marcus' comments for our past couple of moves, this was where he wanted us to be making territory :sad:

On the other hand, our upper-left is now of reasonable size, with potential to expand (although there is a bit of bad aji left), and there are plenty of open areas on the board to get more - especially as we'll have sente.

I'm really not sure if this is the best move - indeed, if it is, then I feel that black has just found a really good move. But I don't see a better one, and this is certainly an option. So I'm throwing it out there.

Mnemonic · **#87**

Move nomination

Marcus · **#88**

WIC:

Redundant · **#89**

Marcus · **#90**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Comments to come.

robinz · **#91**

Hmm. I hope this game hasn't died a death :sad:

SinK · **#92**

Mnemonic · **#93**

bump

lesenv · **#94**

edit: hid it all

SinK · **#95**

BIC:

Redundant · **#96**

Team:

lesenv · **#97**

Redundant, Black Team:

SinK · **#98**

BIC:

lesenv · **#99**

BIC:

Redundant · **#100**

I'm still trying to get a hold of threeve. He hasn't been on in a long time though. What does everyone think we should do?

Teamovich 2

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