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 Post subject: What to do next?
Post #1 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:54 pm 
Lives in gote

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Would someone be willing to check my assessment of this position from a recent game that I played as white?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . b . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . c . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . e . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black just played the marked stone to enclose my corner. I struggled to find the next move largely because it wasn't clear to me what to aim for next. I had a large advantage on the stones on the right that should allow me to kill them if necessary. Without any additional black stones in the area, I judged that I could handle the cuts at O9 and P7.

I don't think it threatens the life of my corner group and while it starts to link up the black stones, there does not seem to be much value in linking those stones at this point. So, I chose to tenuki. However,

I considered the following:

1. I think G5 effectively encloses me. I can't see a way to break through and playing to cut the connection did not seem useful at this point.

2. My lower left corner is my weakest group. But without the ability to break free, it's strategically useless. I could strengthen it with D. But it seems too early for this. I don't think black can kill me. So, the only issue is whether it is the right time to protect the points. Seems too early for that.

3. Black built up some influence in the earlier fight on the top right and has the start of a moyo. So, this is a high priority. I don't think the cuts in the wall on the right work (P15 and Q17), but the wall is still thin enough that I can get in a forcing move (at A for example). B and C also seem like good starting points. Seems like I should be able to live locally.

4. Black's biggest weakness right now is the bottom group. The O3 stone is a tempting target. However, I don't think I can play E immediately. I figured that if I did, the best I could do was to live small on the bottom. The problem is that while I can make the initial play at E, I can't chase the stone up to kill it without jeopardizing by ability to kill the stones on the right. The threat of the black cuts at O9 and P7 would prevent me from killing the black group. And when I defended the cuts, Black would turn around and play against my stones on the left. Black admittedly wouldn't have much use for the central influence, but I figured that if I was going to play to limit black's points, the top was the logical starting place.

5. However, killing the O3 stone would be very valuable. So, F seemed like a good way to hedge my bets at this point. Directly, F allows me to move to the center, but it also threatens to make the invasion at E work. (If we both run up with one-space jumps, F is the move I would not be able to play to trap black due to the cutting points.) I figured that if black responded on the bottom, then I'd have gotten a forcing move and I'd then play to reduce the top. But if black did not defend against E, I'd gain enough points with it to justify ignoring the top to play F.

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #2 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:49 pm 
Honinbo

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I haven't studied or played go in awhile, but I think the top is big.

If I played a game, I'd play somewhere like here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . W . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Totally based on feeling, though :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:49 am 
Gosei

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How sure are you that P15 doesn't work? I think that it could at the least start an an interesting fight. I definitely would not just destroy the possibility by playing O15.

My first instinct would actually be to connect at F4:
  • Black capturing at F4 would be sente anyway;
  • Black F4 would make his entire framework from C11 on down super thick, and indirectly give a ton of support to his O3 stone;
  • After White F4, the cut at G5 could eventually be interesting, especially combined with the possibility of isolating O3 with a move on the lower side. Suddenly it might be hard for Black to just give up the stone if he is left with a baseless group at H3. This is not something you can necessarily take advantage of immediately, but it will be hanging over Black's head.

But that's a ten-second instinctive analysis with very little reading.

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #4 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:23 am 
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dfan wrote:
How sure are you that P15 doesn't work? I think that it could at the least start an an interesting fight. I definitely would not just destroy the possibility by playing O15.

My first instinct would actually be to connect at F4:
  • Black capturing at F4 would be sente anyway;
  • Black F4 would make his entire framework from C11 on down super thick, and indirectly give a ton of support to his O3 stone;
  • After White F4, the cut at G5 could eventually be interesting, especially combined with the possibility of isolating O3 with a move on the lower side. Suddenly it might be hard for Black to just give up the stone if he is left with a baseless group at H3. This is not something you can necessarily take advantage of immediately, but it will be hanging over Black's head.

But that's a ten-second instinctive analysis with very little reading.


Thanks. This is very helpful. And you are right about P15. I failed to notice that afterwards the stones bellow it only have two liberties. So, that makes the move much stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #5 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:12 am 
Judan

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At the moment p15 doesn't work because black has the ladder to lower left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X 0 4 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . 8 7 3 X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 9 2 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . 6 X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X 4 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . X O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 2 O 1 O X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 6 5 3 O X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . 4 X X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So if white got a ladder breaker then he could think about the cut, but black might still squeeze and then not ladder but come out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X 4 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . X O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 2 O 1 O X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 5 3 O X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . 8 6 4 X X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Or just jump initially. As black has the marked stone in the corner the cut at isn't too much to worry about yet (I would expect white to be able to save the cutting stone, but black would be fine on both sides).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X . a X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So in conclusion I wouldn't worry much about p15 at the moment.

P.S. F4 is indeed very big, I would look at e3 as a possible sente follow up for black there to shrink the corner considerably.

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #6 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:26 am 
Honinbo

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My 2 d.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . b . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . c . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . 1 . B . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


One concern I would have with :w1: is that Black would sacrifice :bc:. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #7 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:32 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
P.S. F4 is indeed very big, I would look at e3 as a possible sente follow up for black there to shrink the corner considerably.


What do you think about D-02?

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #8 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:55 am 
Honinbo

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dfan wrote:
How sure are you that P15 doesn't work? I think that it could at the least start an an interesting fight. I definitely would not just destroy the possibility by playing O15.


My thought was simpler than Uberdude's. Since I thought the top was big to begin with, I don't mind giving up stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X . 5 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . 4 3 C O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 1 C O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 6 . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Don't know if this is a good strategy or not, but it's my instinct.

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #9 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:36 am 
Judan

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Kirby: Oh and no 6 at q18? That's a fair bit to give up, and if you make the top points then white has p18 o19 in sente to capture the 3 stones in the corner for even more points (probably reduce first around k14), and the o14 cut for desserts. I didn't count, but with the dead group can white really afford it?

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 Post subject: Re: What to do next?
Post #10 Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:40 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby: Oh and no 6 at q18? That's a fair bit to give up, and if you make the top points then white has p18 o19 in sente to capture the 3 stones in the corner for even more points (probably reduce first around k14), and the o14 cut for desserts. I didn't count, but with the dead group can white really afford it?


I don't know. Maybe I'm too eager to give up stones. I didn't really count. Just in principle, the Q15 stones don't seem worth much other than points since the white group is already strong.

That being said, I admit it's a lot of points.

You can take my opinion with a grain of salt, because I really haven't been doing much with go these days.

I'm not sure even I trust my own intuition ;-)

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Post #11 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:58 am 
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Everyone, thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, after I posted the question, life got in the way of go for a bit, and I'm just now getting my priorities reset..

It seems like both Bill and Uberdude think that defending the group on the bottom left is the more valuable than the other moves on the board. That's very useful feed back. However, that leaves me with a question that I fear might not be easily answered. How does one see this? I looked at the group on the lower left and decided that (a.) it was blocked in now (so it has limited implications for the other groups on the board) and (b.) it can't be killed with a single move. So, the question of whether to defend depends on how many points I lose in the lower left relative to what I can win by playing elsewhere. Is this a good assessment? Or can the group be killed with a single move from black?

If the assessment is correct, it seems like the bottom left is worth is maybe 12 points or so at most. Plus, I would retain some of these even if black gets a free move. So, we are talking about perhaps 8 points, 10 at the most? It then seemed like F threatening the follow-up of 1 in Bills diagram below would be worth at least this much if not more. So, it seemed like F was more urgent. Or am I overvaluing the threat of F?

Bill, even your question of what might happen if black ignores 1, seems to follow the same logic. 1 followed by M5, for example, could be worth 16 points or more. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental here....

Bill Spight wrote:
My 2 d.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . b . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . c . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . 1 . B . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


One concern I would have with :w1: is that Black would sacrifice :bc:. :)

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Post #12 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:56 pm 
Gosei

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BlindGroup wrote:
It seems like both Bill and Uberdude think that defending the group on the bottom left is the more valuable than the other moves on the board. That's very useful feed back. However, that leaves me with a question that I fear might not be easily answered. How does one see this? I looked at the group on the lower left and decided that (a.) it was blocked in now (so it has limited implications for the other groups on the board) and (b.) it can't be killed with a single move. So, the question of whether to defend depends on how many points I lose in the lower left relative to what I can win by playing elsewhere. Is this a good assessment? Or can the group be killed with a single move from black?

In my reply I tried to give some concrete reasons, so I recommend rereading that again too, but here's one more: if your group is barely alive, then every single threat to its life from your opponent has to be answered (unless you are sacrificing the group). That generally means that your opponent gets lots of great sente endgame moves and you often end up with just two points of territory. If you can cross the line from "barely alive" to "so strong it's not worth attacking", which often takes just one move, your endgame situation can be a lot better 100+ moves from now, by a surprising amount.

"Can't be killed with a single move" is an okay criterion for some invading group that you just want to make sure doesn't die, but for groups that are trying to stake out territory, it's often too weak.

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Post #13 Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:57 pm 
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dfan wrote:
In my reply I tried to give some concrete reasons, so I recommend rereading that again too, but here's one more: if your group is barely alive, then every single threat to its life from your opponent has to be answered (unless you are sacrificing the group).


Thank you! This does make sense. I guess I just don't quite have enough experience yet to balance the value of these moves against others yet. But it's something I'll keep an eye on.

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