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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:55 am 
Judan

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:b7: and :b9: were excellent moves that can't be faulted. If you are looking for a change in the early opening it would be n5 connect at o2. In the usual joseki continuation white cuts* and black gets a stable group with some points on the lower side, white gets the outside stone to develop the centre/right side and the corner (but not so huge as honte is to fall back to 3-3 in response to the black p2 push, if block black has big aji in the corner). Yeah white's right is big potential, but there's still the r12 gap and you've got big top side potential too.

*He might also choose some active pincer instead.

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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:21 am 
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EdLee wrote:
I think :b31: is big. Otherwise, W can peep M3:
If B connects, then the entire B group is heavy.
If B tenukis, then W cuts off o3, and B is left with 3 stupid stones
in the center, while W gets both the right side and the bottom.


My disagreement is that this is a difference of three moves. Black gets initial tenuki and then 2 more tenuki's as white peeps and cuts.


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:b3: tenuki
:b5: tenuki or reduce bottom build strength to invade right.

White is aiming at the double wing, but black is also aiming at the double wing except he has three stones in perfect position to start a reduction. They're strong (I think, because they are facing two directions), and they're sacrificable to aid invasions on the right.

But I have a feeling my misjudgement could be because white's bottom is way more solid then any of black's framework.
And the LL has white pushing black down already so black has poor potential.

But B does have P13 or whatever for :b3: / :b5: to build if he decides not to invade. Whereas white doesn't have a move like that thanks to N5

EDIT: Ah I see how you quoted. I suppose that I am wrong about saying only N4 is important. But in this situation i think saving the other two stones isn't worth three moves else where.

schawipp wrote:
The decision for move :b31: was quite difficult. As EdLee pointed out, I feared that the whole group goes to waste and white gets a really huge right and bottom area. On the other hand, I felt urged to play something bigger elsewhere. Probably the J5 alternative mentioned by Unusedname is the best alternative?


On second thought I don't think J5 right away would be that great. You should probably save this until some point after white peeps.

Quote:
Yeah, I played that move merely by a kind of "shape habit" without really thinking about the consequences. The same holds for move :b49:. Maybe I have to try to play more consciously.


Haha, I know this is a big problem for me too. That's why I like playing the correspondence games on OGS, more time to think.

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #23 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:42 am 
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Here is another close game on KGS, where I build a large left-side moyo and responded IMHO incorrectly on an attachment invasion. In the following fight, I lost the lower left corner (big one...) but got at least some compensation elsewhere. At the end, the result was quite close. Therefore I am especially interested in the correct treatment of the attachment invasion and in possible optimizations during endgame play. Any comments/suggestions are highly appreciated.



Edit: Some obvious endgame issues:
- On move 137 a monkey jump was also possible
- I could have captured a stone on S6 (e. g. move 225)

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Post #24 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Hi schawipps,

:b21: looks quite natural to me. If you get a bad result here later,
I suspect the mistake is later, and not :b21: .

:b23: did you consider or read the very natural Q7 ? Your opponent jumps in
and invades, why is your feeling to run with the stronger side ?

:b25: - :w26: exchange: you get gote here all by yourself !

:w28: W can close you ( in sente? ) with something like o6 ?

:b29: yes, jump out. Both sides made mistakes ( :b23: , :b25: , :w28: ).
B and W were helping each other, like good friends. :)

:b33: I also like your variation better.

:b43: - :b45: standard bad habit. Can you see why ?
  • After you killed the 3 W stones in the corner, your group here is super strong, so you are just forcing W to take cash here.
  • You make bad shape for yourself: "hane head of 2," twice! Do you see it ?
  • (Bad shape) You reduced your own liberties.
  • Ajikeshi. You removed all of W's bad aji here for W.
  • You removed the option to cross-cut, instead of :b45: .
  • You removed some ko threats.
  • You may have removed other yose options from yourself.
:b47: instead of :b43: - :b45: - :b47: , jumping directly to K5 is probably better.

:b59: must read very carefully, for shape disasters. Versus R12, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #25 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:43 am 
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Thanks EdLee for your great comments! :b23: was a kind of blind spot, probably motivated by the proverb "don't touch weak stones". Also, I was a bit greedy about getting a big moyo on right top side (which would require an additional move around q18 to become really big, though --> a slow approach). My attachment :b25: aimed to limit eyespace, i. e. prevent a slide into the corner. However I expected the q7 solid connection and wasn't aware that r8 is sente (w simply threats to enter my moyo via s9). If w played correctly here, I would end up in a similar situation as after move :w82: on left side. Of course I already played the "standard response" q7 on :b21: in similar situations but here, I was in a wrong thinking mode ;-)

During moves :b43: - :b45: I really felt happy that I got that "great reduction". Your comment "standard bad habit" is probably one of the best lections, I could get from that game!

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Post #26 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:04 am 
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Hi schawipp, You're welcome.
schawipp wrote:
:b23: was a kind of blind spot, probably motivated by the proverb "don't touch weak stones".
All proverbs are traps, and that one in particular is quite poisonous. :-?
Locally, :b23: at Q7 happens to be a common good shape for B.

Good to distinguish when proverbs apply, and when they fail miserably.

See also this thread, starting from around post 15,
about other traps in Go. :)

Eventually, one goal is to get rid of all proverbs,
be free of them completely, and just play the "best" move,
whatever it happens to be. "No rules."

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Post #27 Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:13 am 
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schawipp wrote:
During moves :b43: - :b45: I really felt happy that I got that "great reduction".
I have similar experiences all the time: during a game,
I would feel quite good or even proud of a move
or sequence, only to find out later from a teacher
that it is actually very bad! :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #28 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:34 pm 
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I still have the tendency to go into tight fighting instead of playing safe moves, even in positions where it is not necessary (and where playing just a safe move could save a lot of time needed for reading complex fights). I just had an actual example of that:



Maybe I need to play just lots more games to get the feeling, when I should calm down... As always, any comments are highly appreciated.

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Post #29 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:46 pm 
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Review.



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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #30 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:24 am 
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@Knotwilg: Thanks a lot, I really appreciate it!

- :b9:, :b21: You are indeed right, I was somehow confused in the first situation and hallucinated about the avalanche joseki (which I do not play normally, BTW). Your variation in the second situation is much more convincing.
- :b55: I have read these proverbs about using thickness to attack and to not make territory with thickness. However I did not yet clearly think about it the other way round - i. e. what should I do if the opponent makes territory with his thickness. This may now hopefully change thanks to your review!
- :b85: Yes I sometimes fall for unimportant small stones/groups. Maybe I'm still influenced by Philidor's proverb "pawns are the soul of chess"... ;-)

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Post #31 Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:33 am 
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As Go is rather complex it sometimes happens to me that I inadvertently kill a larger group without noticing (well, I notice after my opponent resigns). This recent IGS game (I'm playing as black) is my most extreme example of inadvertently killing a group so far. I wish I would be able to plan such things in advance...



If you have similar examples we could make a fun thread out of it (if it doesn't exist yet)... ;-)

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:44 am 
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I played a few more IGS games. In the first game, I should have won clearly, however the opponent kept playing futile moves in my territory. Suddenly my tablet indicated that it urgently needs electrical power. While plugging in the power chord - and while being in a stupid atari - I accidentally touched the screen at the border. As my opponent doesn't accept undo, I resigned, because I was unnerved about my misclick - only to see later that I was still leading. Thus, I have to work on my mental coolness (and on my laziness in counting, too) ...


The other game was also fighting oriented. In a decisive moment I made some bad shape which let my opponent escape with a double-atari. There are also plenty of other mistakes on both sides. Any comments and suggestions on especially this game are highly appreciated.



BTW - My IGS nickname is "andre8s", i.e. I'm white in the first game and black in the second.

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Post #33 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:16 am 
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Some comments:


It's all about attacking weak groups.


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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #34 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Thank you @skydyr for your interesting comments. It's always overwhelming how many more mistakes can be found. To your questions at move :b65:

- My goal was to survive and prevent white from getting a big right side.
- Yes, if I attacked the lower w group instead, the lower side would have at least similar size as if w catches the R9 stone on large scale. In case of the lower right w side there would be even further aji possible to exploit later.

Anyway, I need to adjust my antenna with respect to aji and weak groups (and also my reading lacks accuracy). I guess - besides more tsumego and playing games - there is no short cut ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #35 Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:15 am 
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After >two years, I still haven't made it over Wbaduk's "DDK barrier" :mrgreen:

Let's re-invoke this thread with another messy game (I am black, maybe I should have started this thread with another title, now it is destiny...). In the final result, our mutual blunders have neutralized themselves; however after all, basic tactics and shapes still seem the most urgent fields to work on.


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Post #36 Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:53 am 
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schawipp wrote:
After >two years, I still haven't made it over Wbaduk's "DDK barrier" :mrgreen:

Let's re-invoke this thread with another messy game (I am black, maybe I should have started this thread with another title, now it is destiny...). In the final result, our mutual blunders have neutralized themselves; however after all, basic tactics and shapes still seem the most urgent fields to work on.



At :b13: tenuki is a mistake. White's :w12: is a bit slack, as white should have hane'd underneath most likely. Hane at O17 is great, and continuing at O16 is good too. When you take gote in the upper left and white gets to come back here to a situation where black likely should have finished in sente, things look favourable for white.

As a second note, by keeping white low in the upper right, black would have made white's topside potential smaller, so taking the upper left corner wouldn't be that big compared to making the left small.

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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #37 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:52 am 
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Quite some time has passed but not posting here doesn't mean that I've abandoned playing ;-). Recently I played a funny game in a rated "real-life" tournament, whereof the first 10 moves were very similar as in the Malkovitch game between moyoaji and me (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11181 except white's move :w4: was on hoshi in the actual game instead 4/3 in the Malkovitch game). On move :b11: I "deviated" into a kind of symmetry variation, where both sides build huge moyos. I finally lost the game by 9 points due to a stupid blunder worth about 10 points but nevertheless found the initial game position and center fighting quite funny. I'm still completely lost about how to deal with such huge moyos and would appreciate any comment (game shown till move 97).



Edit: Taking the m5 stones was gote, so I cannot be completely sure, what he could have gotten instead and if that was the main cause for the game result.

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Post #38 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:12 pm 
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A few thoughts:

:b19: feels slow to me. I think black should have kept expanding the moyo to limit white's potential. The cap isn't a huge worry for the time being. :b21: feels a bit like an overplay, also, and should be more distant or expanding the moyo/reducing white from the other side maybe.

For :b29: maybe cut on the other side?

I understand why you played :b35:, but it feels like it puts black a move behind locally. Once white gets that solid connection, it's almost impossible to attack him, while black's stones are cut off.

At :w40:, white can't stop black from connecting, so keeping sente is best.

The empty triangle at :b51: is painful. Perhaps the earlier connection should have been at K5 or a trumpet connection?

:b69: is big, but it's endgame. Better to protect on the right where white's wall is aiming. If white connects those two stones, black's group can still atari it's way to connection, so there's no real threat.

Once white settles his group on the right side, white's strategy has been pretty successful. The bottom half of black's moyo is gone without much to show for it.

For :b89:, maybe attach underneath white's side star point stone?

edit:
It's a very different game, but perhaps after :w8: you should approach white's upper left as in the kobayashi opening, to break up white's moyo potential while leaving black some.


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 Post subject: Re: schawipps messy games
Post #39 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:41 pm 
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schawipp wrote:
I'm still completely lost about how to deal with such huge moyos and would appreciate any comment (game shown till move 97).




You made some heavy plays. It would be better to cut those out of your game.

Now, in the interchanges of the fighting no doubt things happened to obscure that aspect of the game. But kyu players need to play more lightly, really without exception.

At :b21:, the game is there to be won or lost. You choose to reduce, rather than invade. This must be valid. Some points, though. A classic reduction play probably goes no deeper than J10. (What?) A Black answer at H11 should be satisfactory - passive. So you need to think a bit about options in the top left, first. The D15 stone is designed for large-scale play. If you play at C17, you should get something in this area. What you don't want to do is kill off that fledgling group by premature plays in the centre.

Your play at K12 doesn't do that, too obviously, but :b23: was heavy. If you can't afford to play K10, then there is a fighting problem: you are saying that the K12 stone must be saved, whatever. Why, though? You can't be attacking White's group at the top.

So :w24: shows quite good perception: up to :b31: is slow-moving for Black. I guess :w32: should be K9, but White gets fancy. Black surely should play at J9 before F12. :w38: atari at N12 and then :w40: at L14 would make more sense. Then Black's position would be troubling.

So the game meanders on.


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Post #40 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Wow, thank you Charles and skydyr for the very interesting and helpful comments!

Charles Matthews wrote:
You made some heavy plays. It would be better to cut those out of your game.
That's probably one of my biggest weaknesses, and they always tend to happen when I reply "automatically" by gut feeling rather than thinking. For example, while your arguing sounds quite convincing for me in hindsight, during play I didn't even think of treating K12 lightly.

Charles Matthews wrote:
Black surely should play at J9 before F12. :w38: atari at N12 and then :w40: at L14 would make more sense. Then Black's position would be troubling.
Yep - strategic misjudgements often get "compensated" by basic tactical mistakes. This often makes it difficult to clearly identify the most relevant strategic issues.

@skydyr: Your comment about :b69: is very interesting. For some reason I associated the w stones with more or less my upper right moyo. So I thought, by cutting at :b69: I get a large area containing a few w stones. I didn't recognize that - even if the w stones get connected, they couldn't do much damage to that area.

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