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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #281 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Skydyr?
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #282 Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Figuring out the best way to attack here is complicated...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . e . , f . . . . , X g . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X c X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . h . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've roughly labeled the groups here, so I can refer to them.

A) This group is pretty strong. I can block off the side in gote.

B) No concerns about this group for the moment, though maybe there's an invasion or shoulder hit for white later.

C) This group is fairly strong, but could get cut off from the corner at some point. Important in splitting D.

D) This group is weak, but it has decent center access. I expect the rest of the middle game to revolve around it in some way or another.

E) Can link up to the corner easily if necessary. Vital in splitting white's weak group.

F) This group can link up to the right side without too much trouble at the moment, but if I attack D correctly, I may be able to engineer something against it.

G) Light and strong. May have to give up the side stone at some point.

H) There is aji here, but I don't think it's enough to invade quite yet. Otherwise, this group is fairly strong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d X . X . . . b . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Counts:
Black: at least 20 on the bottom, 12+ on the top right, 15 top left, another 9 or so on the left if black seals, maybe more on the right and in the center. Total 47 +9.

White: 16 on the left, 27 on the right, maybe a couple on the top side. Total 45 + komi.

So, black is ahead by a bit, but not enough to declare a win, certainly. I think taking the left side once the endgame begins is vital, but the key is to prevent white from making more points while running with that center, group, or perhaps gaining something from it as black. I'm not sure how to deal with group F right now. I could lean on it to attack the center, but that strengthens white against the top right corner. I could attack white in the center as a lean against it, to take points on the top right perhaps?

I'm looking at the marked point to try and decide if it's sente to allow black to seal the top left off, though I don't think I should play it right away. Is just descending at D sente? I don't think it is. At some point, A3 is big and sente for black.

Looking at A, B, and C in the second diagram as possible attacking moves. I don't expect to be able to kill the white group, so how do I best profit from it? Maybe I should make big central moves that vaguely help enclose it and let white figure out how to save it while I take territory in the center.

I will think some more.

This post by skydyr was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #283 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:20 am 
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I'll post a move soon. I've been too busy this week to think.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #284 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X 6 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After looking at the three moves mentioned in the earlier post, as well as H12 and H13, I've decided that I like this move the best. If white tries to cut, the ladders work for black thanks to Joaz's earlier move at O6. It threatens to completely seal in one more move, at H9, and it doesn't give white easy shape. If black gets to play K14 at some point, it has a good relationship to this move... better than the other candidates.

This was a tough move to pick, so please comment on it.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #285 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:58 pm 
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My choice has been between this and C8. Both are sente, so neither excludes the other. Thus...

I approve.

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #286 Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:22 pm 
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@everyone: I might be quite a while with this move because I've injured my hands, and am also pretty busy, so I won't be writing anything long for at least a few weeks. I may make small posts in the hope that they add up to a move though.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #287 Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:33 pm 
Judan
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Take your time, and I hope you get well soon.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #288 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:51 am 
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I'm in no rush to finish, as I've been busy lately too. Take your time (I do want to finish at some point, though).
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #289 Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Hi everyone. I'm sorry to say that I think I'm going to have to bow out of this game because it's been almost 2 months since I hurt my hands and they're still a long way from being better. I would be willing to put the game on hold and then resume it later if that's what you all want, but we're talking months here and I think we'd run the risk that the game would just fizzle out, so imho it would be better to replace me with someone else or just end the game. Personally I still really want to see how this position develops, so I vote for continuing without me, but it's up to you. :D

I also want to thank you all for a very enjoyable game. Hopefully we can play again sometime. :salute:
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #290 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:09 am 
Oza

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Thanks for the game. Hopefully your hand will heal up relatively soon, at which point we could start another, I suppose. Unless everyone else wants to find a player, though, I'd rather take a look at the comments at this point.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #291 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:47 am 
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skydyr wrote:
... I'd rather take a look at the comments at this point.


Me too.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #292 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:50 am 
Oza

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
skydyr wrote:
... I'd rather take a look at the comments at this point.


Me too.


With 2 out of 3 remaining players agreeing, I'm going to go look, then.
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #293 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:00 am 
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skydyr wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
skydyr wrote:
... I'd rather take a look at the comments at this point.


Me too.


With 2 out of 3 remaining players agreeing, I'm going to go look, then.


I'm happy to end here too. I found out already earlier I didn't like Big Brother Malkovich as much as normal Malkovich, but didn't want to spoil the party. But it was good that I got to give this thing a try, thanks guys!

Might put up a normal Malkovich someday soon though :)
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #294 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:07 am 
Oza

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TIM82 wrote:
I'm happy to end here too. I found out already earlier I didn't like Big Brother Malkovich as much as normal Malkovich, but didn't want to spoil the party. But it was good that I got to give this thing a try, thanks guys!

Might put up a normal Malkovich someday soon though :)


Out of curiosity, how did you feel about white's prospects at this point, and where did you see the game going after black's move?
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #295 Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:44 am 
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And a bit of a quick post mortem:
Some key points:
* I still think :w32: had to be corrected. My selected correction seems now perhaps not-good, after reading the comments and seing the result. Would love to hear any suggestions of better moves there...
* After :w32: I still stand behind all the white moves up to :w42: - they seem correct to me, though I no longer think :b35: at E17 is a mistake.
* :b43: is a nice move and I can't say whether :w44: should be at D10 or C9.
* :w48: had to be corrected for reasons stated before, as well as :w50: BUT the one move I still sometimes wonder about is :w52: at C11. Perhaps I should have made three corrections in a row, I really would like to see how that one would have played out. :cry:
* :b61: is nice, and final board position seems worse for white, but playable still :-) Suspected reasons for falling behind: :w32: and/or :w52:

I would expect something like 1-2-3 below next, after that it is unknow - it is certainly hard & bad for w to run like this, but later on A for w is somewhat irritating if w can first make the running group strong enough, and there is also the cut at b.

Elsewhere on the board C is a nice spot for W (see drmwc's post on page 7), and at black bottom position has holes as well. But both of these have to wait until the running race with that one White group has been solved.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X b . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X 1 . 3 , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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