It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:08 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » Rengo Games

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 15 of 18
  [ 357 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #281 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:28 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #282 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:16 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@BLACK:

( Warning: long post. I recommend getting some munchies before clicking on 'show' )

The current position looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and there are, IMHO, three reasonable possibilities ( a, b and c ).

They end up in about six different positions.

1) Kill the two stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This variation is short and simple, with no branches. We come out strong and solid, and with sente. However, we give up a bunch of territory.

2) The extension.

This move buys some aji, and then transposes into #1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again, there are no branches.

The improvement is this: if we start with position #1, and then extend with :b1: , white would never play :w2:. Instead, they would play 'd' as below.
So :w2: is misplaced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . d e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X . . e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If we can make white play :w2: in exchange for :b1: ,then later, any black move at 'd' or various points 'e' is a threat to extract the three stones. This may give us greater flexibility when we play in the upper right.

3) The hane with squeeze

Assuming that white submits to the squeeze with :w4: below, we end up in this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 6 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then there are two main branches that white can choose:

3A: White blocks from the west

Black strolls eastward making territory. White can never hane because of the weakness at 'f'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X 2 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O f . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Overall this seems pretty good for black.

3B: White blocks from the east

This is more complicated. Everything from :w5: onward is just a guess.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . X X . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X O O X X 1 . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure who is ahead here. I tend to like black.

4) The hane with squeeze declined.

White can refuse to submit to the squeeze, and fight with :w4:
Black's potential eyespace is ruined by :w4: , so :b5: is forced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks similar to position #1, but white is lower. This can't be any worse for us than #1.

5) The hane without attempting the squeeze.

If white is determined not to let black live on the top, and is willing to accept position #4 to ensure that, then if black really wants to live up top the only way for black to force it is to skip the squeeze and play :b3: at F18:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 1 g . 7 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 2 O X 5 6 . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because of the eye at E16/F16, there is little incentive for black to push eastward, so we push westward and white seals us in. We must finish in gote - probably at 'g' - or we die.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #283 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:21 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@BLACK:
My preference is to aim for position #3. They will probably do the minmax analysis and decide to settle for #4.

If you guys prefer #1, I strongly suggest that we play #2 which transposes into #1 - with a slight improvement.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #284 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:15 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...


@Joaz
Well, I'll be straightforward with you.

I don't really care that much about playing this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


vs. this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I don't appreciate that you brush off the first variation by simply saying:
Quote:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low.


and then later after I showed that the move lives:
Quote:
All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea.



Maybe J17 is better than J18. I don't really know.

But I admit I'm a little upset that you said J18 is bad without explaining why. It lives, just like J18, even if it gets surrounded. And if white tightly surrounds like you suggested, we have more aji than in the variations where white cleanly surrounds the J18 variation.

So maybe J18 is bad. But as far as I can tell, we haven't clearly established why, and that's why I'm a little peeved.

Aside from that, in effort to move the game forward, I'm OK with any of J17, J18, E16, or H18.

_________________
be immersed
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #285 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:21 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@TegaiS:
Any thoughts on this?

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline TegaiS
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #286 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:45 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Location: Russia, Krasnoyarsk, (GMT+07:00)
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 17
Universal go server handle: tegais
@Black
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #287 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:34 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@Black:
TegaiS wrote:
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I prefer it too. But let us keep in mind that it is not forced: white can avoid the squeeze like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


...which then leads to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Seems forced for both sides after 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Which leads to a position similar to what Kirby prefers, but better for us because white is lower and has less territory.

I think that if we choose to hane at G18, then this is where we will end up because the squeeze is just too humiliating for white and leaves their whole D16 group vulnerable. So they will avoid the squeeze. ( And we can avoid having to debate J17 vs J18 :D )

TegaiS wrote:
But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.


Agreed. I think we have to play by Saturday Monday.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #288 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:42 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
...I'm a little peeved...

Again, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. It appears to be my fault. Please see your PM box later today.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #289 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:52 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@BLACK:
Kirby wrote:
...I'm OK with any of J17, J18, E16, or H18.


TegaiS wrote:
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.


This is a bit ambiguous. Are we agreed that we play the hane at G18?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #290 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:59 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@BLACK:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
... Are we agreed that we play the hane at G18?


And, if so, when they play the only sane move they have, do we agree on this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . B O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #291 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:10 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@white:

I think that we have a tolerable conscensus, but I'm not quite sure.
We are now 44 minutes from overstepping our one week. So, if you guys get to the point that you think we should forfeit on time, please open the hidden diagram below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 8 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #292 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:33 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
I never meant it to be forfeit on time. I just meant if a week goes by any player can pick the movie I like best and play it.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #293 Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:09 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
emeraldemon wrote:
I never meant it to be forfeit on time. I just meant if a week goes by any player can pick the movie I like best and play it.


I too took it as a guideline to keep the game moving. Obviously trying to coordinate 3 people's schedules for months at a time, who may have travel for business or pleasure, work and family commitments, etc. is bound not to be perfect.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #294 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:15 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Assuming that you guys play 2, we play 3 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger after you guys choose :w4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #295 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:39 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
@white
Capture, then fill after the squeeze, I assume?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #296 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:59 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
White:
I think capture and fill is the only move.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #297 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:09 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 1
KGS: 2d
Tygem: 6d
white
Yes,I agree
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #298 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:44 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Ok after trigger we are here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #299 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:56 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
@white
E18 atari? Then black owes a move on top and we attack on the left in some manner.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #300 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:02 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
@white:
The move we talked about before was E18, making the corner safe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we go that route it might be good to peep first. If the corner is safe black might be more tempted to ignore it, but now I doubt black would tennuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Peep first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Would black ignore peep?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black tennukis, we can reduce the black stones to one eye, but we have many cutting points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Dangerous to try to capture
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 4 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we don't capture that stone we have to be sure the white corner can live somehow, it may become a big semeai:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Capturing race?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 3 . X X . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



If we could be sure of winning the race after K17 we should go for it, but we are very thin outside.
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 15 of 18
  [ 357 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » Rengo Games

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group