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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #281 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:28 am 
Judan
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@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #282 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:16 am 
Judan
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@BLACK:

( Warning: long post. I recommend getting some munchies before clicking on 'show' )

The current position looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and there are, IMHO, three reasonable possibilities ( a, b and c ).

They end up in about six different positions.

1) Kill the two stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This variation is short and simple, with no branches. We come out strong and solid, and with sente. However, we give up a bunch of territory.

2) The extension.

This move buys some aji, and then transposes into #1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again, there are no branches.

The improvement is this: if we start with position #1, and then extend with :b1: , white would never play :w2:. Instead, they would play 'd' as below.
So :w2: is misplaced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . d e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O O X . . e e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If we can make white play :w2: in exchange for :b1: ,then later, any black move at 'd' or various points 'e' is a threat to extract the three stones. This may give us greater flexibility when we play in the upper right.

3) The hane with squeeze

Assuming that white submits to the squeeze with :w4: below, we end up in this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 6 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then there are two main branches that white can choose:

3A: White blocks from the west

Black strolls eastward making territory. White can never hane because of the weakness at 'f'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X X 2 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O f . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Overall this seems pretty good for black.

3B: White blocks from the east

This is more complicated. Everything from :w5: onward is just a guess.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . X X . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X O O X X 1 . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure who is ahead here. I tend to like black.

4) The hane with squeeze declined.

White can refuse to submit to the squeeze, and fight with :w4:
Black's potential eyespace is ruined by :w4: , so :b5: is forced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks similar to position #1, but white is lower. This can't be any worse for us than #1.

5) The hane without attempting the squeeze.

If white is determined not to let black live on the top, and is willing to accept position #4 to ensure that, then if black really wants to live up top the only way for black to force it is to skip the squeeze and play :b3: at F18:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 1 g . 7 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 2 O X 5 6 . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because of the eye at E16/F16, there is little incentive for black to push eastward, so we push westward and white seals us in. We must finish in gote - probably at 'g' - or we die.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #283 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:21 am 
Judan
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@BLACK:
My preference is to aim for position #3. They will probably do the minmax analysis and decide to settle for #4.

If you guys prefer #1, I strongly suggest that we play #2 which transposes into #1 - with a slight improvement.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #284 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:15 pm 
Honinbo

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
... sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply...


Kirby, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I did not intend it to. I'm not trying to be snarky at all.

I think that we have a sincere difference of opinion about two different moves, and we misunderstood each other.

...more later...


@Joaz
Well, I'll be straightforward with you.

I don't really care that much about playing this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


vs. this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I don't appreciate that you brush off the first variation by simply saying:
Quote:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low.


and then later after I showed that the move lives:
Quote:
All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea.



Maybe J17 is better than J18. I don't really know.

But I admit I'm a little upset that you said J18 is bad without explaining why. It lives, just like J18, even if it gets surrounded. And if white tightly surrounds like you suggested, we have more aji than in the variations where white cleanly surrounds the J18 variation.

So maybe J18 is bad. But as far as I can tell, we haven't clearly established why, and that's why I'm a little peeved.

Aside from that, in effort to move the game forward, I'm OK with any of J17, J18, E16, or H18.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #285 Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:21 pm 
Judan
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@TegaiS:
Any thoughts on this?

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Offline TegaiS
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #286 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:45 am 
Lives with ko

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@Black
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #287 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:34 am 
Judan
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@Black:
TegaiS wrote:
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I prefer it too. But let us keep in mind that it is not forced: white can avoid the squeeze like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


...which then leads to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Seems forced for both sides after 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Which leads to a position similar to what Kirby prefers, but better for us because white is lower and has less territory.

I think that if we choose to hane at G18, then this is where we will end up because the squeeze is just too humiliating for white and leaves their whole D16 group vulnerable. So they will avoid the squeeze. ( And we can avoid having to debate J17 vs J18 :D )

TegaiS wrote:
But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.


Agreed. I think we have to play by Saturday Monday.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #288 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:42 am 
Judan
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@Kirby:
Kirby wrote:
...I'm a little peeved...

Again, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. It appears to be my fault. Please see your PM box later today.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #289 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:52 pm 
Judan
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@BLACK:
Kirby wrote:
...I'm OK with any of J17, J18, E16, or H18.


TegaiS wrote:
I like this the most
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But Kirby didn't like it so let's wait for his reasoning.


This is a bit ambiguous. Are we agreed that we play the hane at G18?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #290 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:59 pm 
Judan
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@BLACK:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
... Are we agreed that we play the hane at G18?


And, if so, when they play the only sane move they have, do we agree on this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . B O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #291 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:10 am 
Judan
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@white:

I think that we have a tolerable conscensus, but I'm not quite sure.
We are now 44 minutes from overstepping our one week. So, if you guys get to the point that you think we should forfeit on time, please open the hidden diagram below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 2 3 8 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #292 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:33 am 
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I never meant it to be forfeit on time. I just meant if a week goes by any player can pick the movie I like best and play it.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #293 Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:09 am 
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emeraldemon wrote:
I never meant it to be forfeit on time. I just meant if a week goes by any player can pick the movie I like best and play it.


I too took it as a guideline to keep the game moving. Obviously trying to coordinate 3 people's schedules for months at a time, who may have travel for business or pleasure, work and family commitments, etc. is bound not to be perfect.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #294 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Assuming that you guys play 2, we play 3 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger after you guys choose :w4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #295 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:39 pm 
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Capture, then fill after the squeeze, I assume?
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #296 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:59 pm 
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I think capture and fill is the only move.
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #297 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:09 am 
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Yes,I agree
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #298 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:44 am 
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Ok after trigger we are here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 2 O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 6 O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #299 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:56 am 
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E18 atari? Then black owes a move on top and we attack on the left in some manner.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #300 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:02 am 
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@white:
The move we talked about before was E18, making the corner safe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we go that route it might be good to peep first. If the corner is safe black might be more tempted to ignore it, but now I doubt black would tennuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Peep first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Would black ignore peep?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O . X O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black tennukis, we can reduce the black stones to one eye, but we have many cutting points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Dangerous to try to capture
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X X . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 4 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we don't capture that stone we have to be sure the white corner can live somehow, it may become a big semeai:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Capturing race?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 3 . X X . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



If we could be sure of winning the race after K17 we should go for it, but we are very thin outside.
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