This game was originally started on GoDiscussions. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?Godiscussions) and when GD died, it moved here. That's why 'continued' is in the title.
The teams are Chew Terr, me, and Shapenaji playing white; Gresil, Topazg, and Violence playing black.
We join the game when it is Chew Terr's turn to make the first white attempt at move 24.
This is move #24A. Has anyone seen Violence, I think he's the only person I haven't seen at L19.
Hey, if I forget to post this in the bug forum, the software doesn't seem to know how to handle nested hide tags.
Okay, let's look at this carefully...
First, I think that Joaz corrected my move to make it more cautious/passive. I still think that the more aggressive move is playable. That means that the result is not necessarily good for us. Because Joaz's move supported our weak western group, I'm betting that he thought that black could attack that weak group to push it low and such. Even if we killed the corner, that would give black huge thickness that could potentially weigh heavily later. I'll try to keep group safety in mind as I consider this move.
You know how they say that empty triangles are bad because they hurt your liberties? Well. Empty triangles are bad. They hurt your liberties. So let's not make this one.
For novices
What's an empty triangle?
For the uninitiated, an empty triangle is 3 stones of the same color touching, in a blocky sort of triangle.
[go]$$Bc $$ | . W O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The white stones here make an empty triangle. You'll see that before I play the marked stone at a, I have three liberties. After the empty triangle, I also have... three liberties. The shape tends to be inefficient because it does not move far from the stones you already have, and does not buy you any more liberties. In tough contact fights, liberties are a huge deal. A hane at 'b' would probably be more efficient because in addition to restricting black's group's liberties, it ensures our top group a bit more eyespace. Whether or not our west group can survive long enough for 'b' to help us capture black will be decided in my analysis of 'b'. If you would like more information on empty triangles, check the sensei's article, send me a message, or ask someone who knows more than me. I am, you know, quite ignorant =D
Okay, let's see. The downside of playing here in general is that we're still low, and we're building black an enviable wall. So we want to stop pushing here at the exact moment we can. If black plays 'a' to get more liberties, we can turn the corner at 'b'. That gets our group safety, and makes our weak stone below start to look like an extension, albeit too far. If black plays 'b', we can look at 'c' and 'd'.
First, 'd'. Let's see if the prior push gave us enough liberties to make the hane above.
Okay, so now we CAN capture the corner group, but it gives black huge east-and-southward-facing thickness. I don't think we get enough for it, but at least we won't die. This move is a pressure release that we can use if we get in trouble (or if the thickness black would get is somehow neutralized), but it probably won't be an option by the time we would choose to take it.
Now let's look at the alternative, a hane towards the south.
We can hane at 'a', but then both black and white groups have 3 liberties... and black goes first. The other option with the hane is to atari the cutting stone from the other side.
Meh, this is not amazing, either. If we don't cut off the surrounded corner group soon, black has a tesuji at 'a' to get more liberties. So black would have the option to keep pushing us low like this or to try to save the enclosed group with a play at one of the 'b's.
So maybe 'd'. I've got a feeling that this hane will look a bit like the prior hane diagram, which is scary.
Again, ALMOST enough liberties to win the fight, but not quite. We could play W6 at B7 to try for a crane's nest, but that puts both our group and black's at 3 liberties, and again, black's turn.
If we play 'e', black instinct seems to be to peep at our connection, by playing 'd'. Then, we can play 'c' to connect, but I'm not sure if that's any better than reversing the order and playing 'c' then 'e'. So, after all this, let's just play things the passive way. Let's play 'c' in the first hidden diagram, then plan to play 'e' or something like it, if black keeps pushing us along. I hate playing moves this passive and giving black all they want, but I can't read a better way. Hopefully Joaz and Shape can.
Official longest post of L19. So far.
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I approve.
Locally, it is the only move. The black hane here is just too strong. And now we are threatening the killer hane at B18. They will probably have to take C18 to prevent it, then we play D18 which is sente, and they make themselves alive in the corner with B18. Then we have sente!
Also, in a whole-board sense, this move follows theidea of reinforcing the important D7 stone.
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Approved
It's horrible having your opponent hane both ends of two stones. Three stones is definitely less painful, but still really annoying. However, the choice is either that or die completely in the corner, so for those that hadn't seen my previous sequences on GD I'm still expecting the following.
However, having never seen this joseki before in any of my games (I really mean this!!), it's come up twice in my games since I realised I didn't know the joseki in this thread. One of them was particularly interesting. Firstly, I had assumed "a" above was the only move that felt correct, but my opponent played "b". Assuming foolishly that pushing at "c" would cause him shape problems (and I could have sworn I had a working ladder) I merrily pushed, and then re-read to find that nothing quite worked. The game started as follows (I've moved all the other stones around to match my game):
Yuk yuk yuk yuk!! Still, I'm alive, and I want to cut at "a" if I can - it looks annoying. However, I have a bottom group that needs looking after now as well. Time to protect that, and then get going:
"39" Looks like it's a splitting move first and foremost, but it was really designed to give me good running shape with "41" and "43". It doubled as a splitting move too, and after he got to fix that cut I wanted it made sense to me to take "45". After this the game doesn't really seem so relevant, but the ladder I couldn't play was very interesting, especially as the game we have going White has the ladder available to him, so we cannot play as my opponent did in the game above.
Okay, I have a couple of questions at this point. First, is responding at D18. Can I kill the corner if I do? Do I need to play there to kill the corner (Pretty sure the answer to this one is yes). If I do not respond, is the top white group in significant danger?
I would LOVE to get a move like this in, but I don't want to get our top group into trouble to do it. Obviously this move would give us a big advantage on the left side, but it's not worth it at the expense of the top. Let's look at the answers to these questions, then consider where we want to go to resolve them.
Okay, so B18 kills the corner if black tenukis, but since we can ignore 1 where I just showed it, black gets to do something more active. Let's consider a more reasonable scenario.
Okay, if black tenukis, they seem to at best get a wall facing the center, but our groups on both side live and take low territory on the west. I'd say we come out ahead there, but black does get that free tenuki to approach our southeast, so it is probably even. In short, B18 is sente to kill the corner.
Next up: If we tenuki, how much trouble is the topside in?
Okay, is sente enough that if black does not respond directly, the crane's nest kills just before black could kill the top. So we assume black will respond. Let's see how that goes, too.
So it looks to me like we, also, can live in gote. I'm not certain I like this, since black gets sente. I could live with the position itself if we had it. So let's look at one more option.
Since F14 is so crucial to the fight (and it would let our top mostly into the open) let's see what happens if we took it first.
[go]$$Bc B: 7 W: 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . X . 4 O 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X W X O O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X 1 X W X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X X O , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Okay. I'm not confident at all about reading anywhere near this deep. However, I am sure that this makes a more complicated fight. Since the best reading I can make turns out poorly (though barely) for us, I believe that our groups are probably too weak to fight this out right now. While my team can correct any misreads I've got, I have to assume that black's team can fix as many of the misreads I did on their side, so our groups will still be slightly too weak to win. As a result, I'm going to pick the road shown in the third hidden box.
Edit: Looking at it later, I think we can do well enough from this is 4 is at E12. While we don't actually have a ko threat big enough to win the ko, we can save the bulk of what was threatened. Hmmm, so confusing =D
Edit: This game hurts my brain. I feel like I'm using diagrams a bit as a crutch to help me read deeper than I could just sitting at a board in a regular game. I'm going to try to cut back on that a bit. That should make it more instructive to anyone weaker than myself, not to mention make it so I won't mess up by trying to read deeper than I really can. That may mean me sticking a bit to simpler variations and such, but I would feel less cheesy doing it that way.
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
...in which black makes the classic shape move to get out and dies in a crane's nest. However, because of black 1, this is not a true crane's nest. ( Beginners: look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?CranesNestTesuji )
Note the difference that 1 makes. Not only does it guarantee that black's corner is alive, it compromises the safety of white's top group. It would really be nice to get there ourselves.
As I noted a few posts back, if we do go there, it is sente to kill the corner. ( Killing the corner is huge. We have two groups that are getting too big to lose, and if the corner dies, they are both alive. And the corner itself is worth something like 25-30 points )
Therefore they will have to defend, we can still come back to D12 if we want to. I'm not sure that D12 is indeed best even then, but I know that if we play D12, it is better to have a white stone at D18 than a black stone. So even if we do decide to play D12, D18 must come first.
I guess it's just there as a forcing move, before we get the move I wanted in the first place... but I'll look at it some more before my next turn, to consider how they could have punished my move in comparison.
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
This is our opportunity to make this move, if we do not make it now, there's a very good chance we won't be able to get it later, black could combine attack and defense by making this move instead.
However, that being said, Terr's move hardly seems fatal, it appears at first glance as though we can make this move and still make joaz's move in the corner, as terr's move is sente against the 3 stones.
The problem is that we don't want to push black that way, we want to move our white stones on top out, if we push him, we cut ourselves off.
We want him to push us along the left side, so we don't need to stop him...
P.S.
Joaz, there's no need for a cranes nest when they haven't hopped out at 1, just take away a liberty. hane and the 3 stones are dead, although I still think Terr's move is incorrect for the reasons above
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Wha? I have no clue whatsoever why Joaz changed this move... both of these moves are sente, you can change their order and there's no difference... I really don't understand.
If Joaz had kept Terr's move, this would have been white's follow-up, not the crane's nest. You might think automatically to play the crane's nest because it's a tesuji you've seen before. But here is almost always better when you've got an "incomplete" crane's nest. It reduces the liberties liberties of the black stones and therefore captures more firmly. This position is a good example why it's better. The shortage of liberties on the top white group means the crane's nest doesn't work.
In this case, because works, Terr's original move is sente, which is what shapenaji and Violence are talking about. White gets to play both this and Joaz's move, in whichever order. But maybe it's still worth changing because it's pushing black in the wrong direction (that's a question that's beyond my judgment).
Kageyama spends some time talking about this idea in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go. He gives a couple examples of capturing firmly.
[go]$$B $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X O . . . | $$ . O . X . X O . O . | $$ , . . . a W X O . . | $$ . O . . b c X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Here, you could capture the marked white cutting stone in a ladder with a, but that lets white get a ladder breaker in, so that's obviously bad. You can net with b, but Kageyama recommends c. It captures too (if white extends, you can net), but it's firmer because it reduces the liberties of the white stone.
[go]$$B $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . . . | $$ , . . O . O X X . . | $$ . . . . O X W . . . | $$ . . . . . X W . . . | $$ . . . . . X b a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Here you could net with a, which is normally good. But in this case, you can play b, which is better because it's firmer.
Choosing the "firmer" way of capturing often gets you a liberty ahead in capturing races or an advantage in many tactical situations, and also often reduces the number of forcing moves your opponent has against you and leaves behind fewer ko threats.
But here's an example where the crane's nest is correct:
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Chew Terr
is sente enough that if black does not respond directly, the crane's nest kills just before black could kill the top. So we assume black will respond. Let's see how that goes, too.
here is almost always better when you've got an "incomplete" crane's nest. It reduces the liberties liberties of the black stones and therefore captures more firmly. This position is a good example why it's better. The shortage of liberties on the top white group means the crane's nest doesn't work.