It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:51 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #1 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:21 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 162
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 17
Black to play. Play the best pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


I've clicked on all intersections around :black: and :white: , but none was correct.
Help? Thanks!!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #2 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:25 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1769
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 492
Strange. Did you really try all intersections from a to f? The standard pincer is "a", but in some cases, other choices are possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . b d f .
$$ | . . . . . O . a c e .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


Last edited by jlt on Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by jlt was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #3 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:29 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Best pincer? That's an overly specific question. A pincer, sure?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #4 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:54 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Jika wrote:
Black to play. Play the best pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


I've clicked on all intersections around :black: and :white: , but none was correct.
Help? Thanks!!


The question is BS. Don't worry about it.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #5 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:19 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2408
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2346
Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
The "best" pincer, without reference to the rest of the board, has no meaning. Especially since the bots have been telling us for the last three years that fundamentally we should not want to pincer. Where did you get the question and what have you been clicking in to try to find the answer?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #6 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:38 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 532
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 136
Rank: 13k
Jika, do you not have anyone who will sit down and play go with you?

_________________
David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #7 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:02 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
do you not have anyone who will sit down and play go with you?
Hi David, I don't know about Jika's situation, but statistically, for most places, this is not feasible.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #8 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:53 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 162
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 17
@jlt:
All your suggestions a-e are considered correct :oops:

@ez4u:
I'm getting those regular stupid questions from 321go
The exercise before that one was to pick one of 3-4 suggested intersections as "best move";
now they leave the solution open, I'm lost.
I tried between the black and white stone, and around the white stone (because of pincer, yes).
But, obviously, I did not try far enough.
I'm thinking now, pincer means "taking the white stone between two black stones".
But I thought it would be closer to the white, like squashing it to the side or the bottom, directly squeezing it...

@bogiesan:
I play go, I ride a recumbent (trike), of course I use a Tuxedo (Linux-optimized hardware)

And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D

If you meant: An experienced player? No. There is a group in the nearest university town, but they play in the evenings, when buses are rare, I have no car, and a cab/taxi costs 47,- Euro ONE WAY.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:58 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
https://senseis.xmp.net/?Pincer


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #10 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:37 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1769
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 492
Common continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . X . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #11 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 162
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 17
@Uberdude: Thanks - but looking this up I'm getting really confused (seeing counter-pincers and high vs low pincers) about the use of "high" and "low".
Are low pincers the ones on the same line as the pincered stone, and high ones the line closer to the centre, on the line of the uhm, stone of the same colour?

So, a,b,c would be low, d,e,f high?

@flt: Could you please explain a bit?
I can't see when/where the pincer happened in your diagram. What move number, please?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #12 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:23 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Jika wrote:
@Uberdude: Thanks - but looking this up I'm getting really confused (seeing counter-pincers and high vs low pincers) about the use of "high" and "low".
Are low pincers the ones on the same line as the pincered stone, and high ones the line closer to the centre, on the line of the uhm, stone of the same colour?

So, a,b,c would be low, d,e,f high?

@flt: Could you please explain a bit?
I can't see when/where the pincer happened in your diagram. What move number, please?


Typically a "low" pincer is on the 3rd line. A "high" pincer is on the 4th line. This is if you count the lines, starting from the edge of the board (the edge is line number 1).

Generally speaking, a pincer can be played to prevent the opponent from forming a base with his stone. In the original problem, white approached the black 4-4 stone. If black responds on the left, white has the freedom to extend along the bottom to make a base (i.e. a safe group).

A pincer messes with white's potential to make a base, inducing white to choose a different option.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #13 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:35 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1769
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 492
@Jika: the pincer wasn't numbered. I reproduce the diagram and mark the pincer with a circle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . B . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #14 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:36 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Low pincers are on the 3rd line (from the edge, so a/c/e in jlt's diagram), high are on the 4th line (b/d/f). A pincer is a move on the other side of the opponent stone from where your existing stone(s) are: you are approaching it from 2 sides, like a pincer movement in a battle.

So :b3: here is a pincer: black has stones on either side of white :w2:. The main strategic thing a pincer does is make it hard for the pincered stone to extend along the side in the direction of the pincer to make a base (space for eyes and thus safety) in that direction.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


Compare to if black just answered with patient knight move :b3: , white could extend on side to make a base:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


A counter pincer is a move which pincers the pincer :) So :w4: could be described as a counter-pincer, because it pincers :b3: with :w2: and :w4:. It stops :b3: from extending along the side around there to make a base. But it didn't help :w2: and is separate from it so black could just link up at a to make his stones safe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So if white wants to attack :b3: it is important to separate it from :b1: first. So white could jump out, black probably defends at :b5: (or one to left) and then white can counter-pincer at :w6: and :b3: can't connect to :b1: / :b5: . With these kind of pincer and then counter-pincer moves it is common for running fights to develop, with both players having groups which are weak.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #15 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:02 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 162
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 17
Thank you all!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #16 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:54 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 532
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 136
Rank: 13k
Jika wrote:
@bogiesan:
And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D


I appreciate your situation, I think most of us have suffered through similar. Best of luck getting your friend to play!

_________________
David Bogie, Boise ID
I play go, I ride a recumbent, of course I use Macintosh.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Easy 4 U, too tricky 4 me
Post #17 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:04 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
bogiesan wrote:
Jika wrote:
@bogiesan:
And, no, I have nobody to play go with.
But - I might have soon!!
A friend saw my board yesterday and mentioned "oh, I've had one like that [mine is cardboard] for years, but never managed to learn how to play. Are the rules complicated?" - "Noooo, the rules are really simple!" :D


I appreciate your situation, I think most of us have suffered through similar. Best of luck getting your friend to play!


If that doesn’t work, I’ll play you online sometime if you’d like. Or we can play a Malkovich game here ;-)

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: Jika
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group