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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 6:25 pm 
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bugcat wrote:
I don't see how the narrative of professionals using a play definition that excludes lightness and flexibility, and Western amateurs using a shape definition that includes them (having been misguided by the 1992 Go Player's Almanac) at all fits this data.
I don't know about that narrative either... but that huge list of descriptions of sabaki really tells me that it is more about the flexibility of stones (which if flexible would inherently be resilient on the whole), not about lightness. Flexibility allows sacrifice to escape as well as potential to make eyes, whether in a light or heavy shape.

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Post #22 Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 2:57 am 
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Sakai, Kato, Takemiya, Kim and Otake defined sabaki in terms of shape.


Quoting a list that includes bad translations or SL articles with bad examples does not progress the discussion. It merely illustrates why sabaki has become a problem in English. To misquote further compounds the problem.

Take the alleged Takemiya quote, for example (Enclosure Josekis). The quote/definition is not by him. It is in a list of definitions added by Ishi Press. If we look at usages actually attributable to Takemiya, we get the following, in which I extract the key words used in the English:

p. 4 makes light shape
p. 9 sabaki shape
p. 10 settles his group
p. 43 gets sabaki
p. 49 settles his group
p. 52 sabaki shape
p. 71 gets sabaki
p. 104 settle his group/sabaki shape
p. 105 easy sabaki/gives flexible shape
p. 118 settles his group
p. 125 uses the term "resilient shape" but does not uses 'sabaki'
p. 130 settles his group
p. 136 makes light sabaki shape
p. 154 sabaki rhythm/builds momentum for sabaki
p. 155 tesuji for sabaki
p. 169 settles the White group
p. 178 sacrifice to get sabaki
p. 196 sabaki tesuji
p. 200 settles himself/develops along the side

So, in 19 examples, 'light' appears twice and flexible once, and 'resilient' appears once but does not get the label 'sabaki'. Which rather shoots the appendixed definition out of the water.

In contrast 'settle' appears six times. There is also mention of 'sabaki shape' but for that there is actually a separate term, sabakigatachi, to describe the end result of the process of sabaki.

The most problematical translations here are 'get sabaki' and 'make sabaki'. They do at least contain a verb and so are acceptable, but they have the unfortunate effect of making 'sabaki' look like a definable object rather than a process.

Strictly, one could say there is a problem with 'settle a group' because that could include making two eyes or running away, which would attract other terms (e.g. shinogi), but they are perfectly acceptable here because each case is illustrated by an example diagram.

Underlying all this are interesting linguistic notions.

One is that each language has its own 'genius' - a preferred way of doing things. English is very fond of adverbial verbs in which we take a basic verb and attach an adverb to get a more nuanced meaning, and sometimes even a strange meaning, e.g. throw: throw in, throw away, throw out, throw back, but also throw up (and also throwback!). Speakers of Romance languages often have major problems with these when learning English.

In contrast, one of the main characteristics of Japanese is that it is very fond of verbal nouns. In general the verbal aspect dominates. Japanese likes to put the verb at the end of a sentence, where it is regarded as the most important word. English typically prefers a noun at the end. (SVO as opposed to Japanese SOV.) You see the difference best if you look at adverts. Japanese copywriters like to omit the verbs, knowing that the reader will easily supply it, and carry that 'doing' idea through subliminally. English copywriters instead like to do things like create a sentence that predicts a certain noun at the end but then changes it in a punning, joking or other emphatic way, typically the product they want you to buy.

Translating from Japanese to English requires us to get over this hurdle. Amateur translators in particular rarely get over the hurdle - and professionals often stumble, too - but instead they go round the obstacle. So, instead of trying to use a matching word like 'cope' for 'sabaku' they invent noun-based phrases such as 'get sabaki' or 'make sabaki'. There's a verb in there but it's a rather meaningless all-things-to-all-men kind of verb - it's the noun that matters, even if it's not actually translated!

This problem exist throughout go. Yose is a verbal noun. You wouldn't guess that from 'endgame'. Shimari is a verbal noun. It actually refers to enclosING a corner. You wouldn't guess that from 'making a shimari'.

There are many terms where it just so happens we can exploit a feature of Anglo-Saxon English where we have the same word used as either a verb or a noun (turn, bend, wish, vomit). We could, and sometimes do, use these for Japanese go terms, e.g. kiri (cut), but for some reason we tend to avoid them, e.g. 'bend' for hane has never gained traction.

A further problem is the western obsession not just with shape but with definitions. Many Japanese don't see sabaku as a go term. It's just an ordinary word in the ordinary language. It doesn't need defining. What makes it special in go is not its definition but its context, or its attributes.

If we look at sabaki/sabaku in those terms we can describe typical contexts or attributes, but we don't (maybe can't) define them.

For example, sabaki starts with the context of a predicament. Not every predicament betokens sabaki (a group with just three points space in a line is certainly in a pickle and needs a move at the centre to live - but that is not sabaki. But every sabaki starts with a predicament.

We then have a process of expedience to sort out that predicament - to 'cope' with it. (I don't like 'manage' because that often implies control. In sabaki you are the hunted not the hunter.) This process typically but not involves necessarily certain types of moves. These may be describable as light, flexible or resilient - or may not. They may be forcing moves. They may be inventive (tesuji) or sacrificial. They have to be something a bit out of the ordinary because you are in a pickle and you don't want to throw good money after bad. All you want to do is tide things over, get by, make the best of a bad job - cope.

At the end of this process, because stones have necessarily been added, you will, if successful, end up with a shape (the sabakigatachi) where you have typically not lived but you have got by - you have coped. This is a temporary reprieve, though. It is not the same as perfect life (and you may have had to give up something in return - sacrifices, loss of aji or forcing moves), but you have lived for another day.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #23 Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 6:00 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
A further problem is the western obsession not just with shape but with definitions. Many Japanese don't see sabaku as a go term.
Well, even if the Japanese don't see 捌く as a Go term (it isn't), Japanese Go players DO see サバキ as a Go term, which is why it's emphasized with katakana, right? The problem is that it's vague and kind of meaningless. It's broadly descriptive of what is happening during a period of the game but not descriptive of how individual plays function.
John Fairbairn wrote:
For example, sabaki starts with the context of a predicament... We then have a process of expedience to sort out that predicament - to 'cope' with it.
So then is your second example with Shuwa vs Hayashi really "sabaki"? Because it is in the context of an invasion, not a predicament. It starts with a deliberate attempt to become attacked by Black's power in the upper right, which I think is about opposite of coping with a predicament. And with the invasion placed, Shuwa immediately attempts to make sabaki by making light and flexible shape (one might say) with the ogeima.
Attachment:
Shuwa4.PNG
Shuwa4.PNG [ 588.14 KiB | Viewed 4231 times ]

If, by definition, an invasion is going to put a stone in a predicament where it will need to cope with the opponent's attack using a variety of techniques (sacrifice, miai, etc), why not just call it an "invasion"? "Handling an invasion" seems a better descriptor than "sabaki." Of course, not all invasions require special techniques. Sometimes there is little risk of being attacked severely. But we can use our favorite English technique of adverbing verbs to get "deep invasion," which given that it's deep, would require handling (coping) with special techniques. To me, "miai" seems to be the primary technique of sabaki but not just miai of 2 points, miai of a sequences of moves in which a group lives or escapes.

By the way, KataGo eventually preferred Shuwa's deep invasion over the attachment to the left by it took a lot of playouts.

----------

As an example, I would not say that White is sabakiing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | 7 . 1 . . X . . .
$$ | 6 3 2 X . . . . .
$$ | a 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #24 Posted: Thu May 26, 2022 10:10 am 
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Quote:
Japanese Go players DO see サバキ as a Go term, which is why it's emphasized with katakana, right?


Some do, some don't. The great Hayashi Yutaka chose not to include it in his Go Encyclopaedia, for instance. And the use of katakana is more to do with making go books usable by young people who are limited to the Toyo Kanji. I'm relying on memory, but I don't think the very common go words 劫 and 隅, for example, are in the TK. Even for more highly educated readers, characters such as 綽 for hane would stump most of them nowadays. Many go characters look strange to modern eyes because they were borrowed from Chinese, but after WWII they were gradually phased out or simplified. Most go words are not in katakana.

If you want a bit of fun, you could ask some Japanese people to write apple in kanji, which is something many western students of Japanese can do!

Quote:
So then is your second example with Shuwa vs Hayashi really "sabaki"? Because it is in the context of an invasion, not a predicament.


Well, the Japanese comment started on move 70. You appear to have gone back a lot further. I'd say the invasion was not an attempt at sabaki. It went awry and that is when (move 70) the need for sabaki arose. The last ko example you give (which I think may be from SL's definition of sabaki?) is certainly not (in isolation) a proper sabaki example. Self harm can hardly be counted as causing a predicament, can it (unless one is trying to show off as a barrack-room psychiatrist)? It is something that happens to you from external sources - you are caught unawares (hence the need to 'cope').

Quote:
I would not say that White is sabakiing.


We do use tenuki as a verb (though not always in the right sense, and the distinction seems to be more important than ever in AI times), so why not sabaki if you can't cope with 'cope'? :)

PS The significance of Go Almanac is that it had a specially big impact and was widely used around the western world. BGJ lists, in contrast, reached maybe 500 in the UK.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #25 Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:23 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
If you want a bit of fun, you could ask some Japanese people to write apple in kanji, which is something many western students of Japanese can do!


I was fortunate enough to visit Nara some 10 years ago. Right in the main... boulevard? I bought a couple of fans (the decorated ones, not the calligraphy ones, like those of the Kiin). I also wanted to buy a couple of ink sticks [*], and they were, of course, helpful to point me to a place (right in front of the street, as it happens).

...then the pesky gaijin had to ask how ink was written. There were two different generations present. It took a while.

And I've heard some rumblings about the simplification of some kanji (say, "ki").

About the English liking for phrasal verbs... I think Roman languages have them... but the mechanics are no way as ingrained, or frequent. One of Sir Terence later books with Tiffany Aching there's a sample of "take", on clothing, that's an absolute wonder to read.

Take care.

[*] Does anyone know if inkstick makers were buraku? I'm getting mixed signals from some docs. In general, I'm getting mixed signals with traditional crafts involving dirt or leather.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #26 Posted: Fri May 27, 2022 5:07 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
The great Hayashi Yutaka chose not to include it in his Go Encyclopaedia, for instance.
I suppose he thought it was a meaningless term -- I'm wondering myself. I haven't seen Hayashi's encyclopedia, surely long out of print, but there was one other (besides the ko jiten) that I was looking at on Amazon JP. maybe it's time to find it again.
John Fairbairn wrote:
Well, the Japanese comment started on move 70. You appear to have gone back a lot further. I'd say the invasion was not an attempt at sabaki. It went awry and that is when (move 70) the need for sabaki arose. The last ko example you give (which I think may be from SL's definition of sabaki?) is certainly not (in isolation) a proper sabaki example.
Well, I gave that example (from SL but NOT from the sabaki page) because it shows a situation where a player invades, tries to escape but cannot, and with the 7th move make ko attempt at life. Whereas Shuwa invades, tries to escape, and then with 15th move initiates sabaki. So is it the number of moves? Or being in the center vs being in the corner?

If Shuwa's play (and the first example) really are sabaki while the 4-4 enclosure ko is not, maybe the crux of sabaki is "flexibility" because Shuwa's sequence has 20+ moves where at every point the players were deciding between Shuwa's group in the center escaping or being blocked off, taking the right side territory (and lower right quadrant) or giving it away, allowing white to live in the corner while Black lives on the right while also blocking White off in the center, and so on (thanks to KataGo for showing me). There are so many possibilities. The 4-4 corner enclosure sequence is not so flexible, it's essentially fixed.
John Fairbairn wrote:
so why not sabaki if you can't cope with 'cope'? :)
I'll try!

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #27 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
While toying with the idea of putting out a small book on Shuwa (to celebrate the fact that the GoGoD database now (though not yet issued) has the complete games of Shuwa - 600)

Surely no special requests are granted but if we can express hopes and dreams -- maybe if there was a Shuwa book it would have introduction on Dads and Moms of Go.

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 1:45 am 
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Code:
maybe if there was a Shuwa book it would have introduction on Dads and Moms of Go.


The Segoe book is making good progress and I'm under too much pressure to finish off the Huang Longshi book next, so I'm not likely to do a Shuwa book for a long time (though I never say never). But if I did do one it would (as an exception) never have Dads and Moms in it. I detest the word Mom, and very much dislike the word Mum. My word is Mam, and the order is always Mam and Dad.

I happen to dislike, too, the British word Nan for what I pronounce Grom-mo, though that may be because Nancy was once a common name in my area and I had an Aunt Nan.

I can't explain these preferences. The obvious explanation might seem that you prefer what you are brought up with, but I dislike Pa even though that was the word my father used for his father (to whom I was close). Also, I only ever used Dad, even though other kids in my area tended to prefer Da. And while I used Granda, I don't bristle at Gramps. I semi-bristle at Grannie (but readily accept the generic term grannie).

It's funny how these things work. As a linguist, I'd love to hear some more about American usage (and how about Australian?).


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Post #29 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:11 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
the order is always Mam and Dad.
...
It's funny how these things work. As a linguist, I'd love to hear some more about American usage (and how about Australian?).

Well, I was thinking about Cho U, and then Shuwa and so "Dad" came to mind. But "Moms and Dads" seems to be the preferred order.

I hear "Mom" the most. A few "Mums," maybe a Midwest US thing. And I often hear the Spanish "Mama". Never heard "Mam" I don't think. As for "Dad," I don't hear much "Da" at all.

I think the most common difference to hear is with Aunt. "Ahnt" vs "Ant".

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Post #30 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:01 am 
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Another example of where a Japanese says sabaki and a typical western amateur might not - but should!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . X O . X . . . .
$$ | . . O O a O O . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


The headline to the problem is "A sabaki tesuji which is a blind spot." The guidance is that Black want to avoid supinely answering the peep at 'a' which would make his group look stupid.

The way to 'cope' deftly is below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 4 X . . . .
$$ | . . X , 3 1 2 6 . ,
$$ | . . X O . X 5 . . .
$$ | . . O O . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]



Variation 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . . .
$$ | . . X , 1 O 2 7 a ,
$$ | . . X O 3 X 5 6 8 .
$$ | . b O O 4 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

White has a strong shape with a possible block at 'a' and a force at 'b'.

Variation 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 X 4 . . .
$$ | . . X , X O O . . ,
$$ | . . X O X X X O 2 .
$$ | . . O O O O O 1 . .
$$ | . . . . X b a 3 . .
$$ | . . . . d c 6 . h .
$$ | . . . X f e . . . .
$$ | . . . , g . . . . ,[/go]

If Black now pushes in at 'a', White successfully captures some Black seed stones (taneishi) after 'b' to 'h'.

Now would you really want to describe any of that as 'light and flexible' shape?

Sabaki (coping) is not in itself a technique. The specific technique highlighted here is 'momentum,' which in the first answer diagram is using the tesuji of White 1 as a potential sacrifice, as in Variation 1, to answer Black 3 of variation 1 at 4 in a natural, non-supine way.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #31 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:36 pm 
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I'm afraid I still don't think I understand what sabaki is, only perhaps what it is not.

But I was drawn to the use of the words "force" and "momentum". I think of these as revolving around weak points. It seems that the level of force is proportional to the value attached to nearby weak points (and dependent on how many moves it takes to profit). However, momentum implies direction persistence, a force that causes motion in some region of space, which then having moved, exerts a force in the same direction in another region. Of course, individual Go stones don't move, so to answer the question of what exactly is moving, I could call it "centre of mass of vital points", i.e. the options that W has to escape.

In this sense, perhaps W takes a hit when B punches, but doesn't have to block directly spending a move. Instead, W can dodge and avoid directly responding to the punch. By moving away from the punch, W crashes into B's formation above. Although B is quite solid, W is strong enough to poke a hole in it to allow another direction of escape, which is all W is asking for. We find that B punches W into their own shape, but this also gives themselves time to reinforce, making W heavier since W remains behind enemy lines without any extra eyes. Somehow, W swallows a floating component of the wall to get past it, perhaps this is why a dragon analogy is used.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sabaki example
Post #32 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:27 pm 
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Quote:
I'm afraid I still don't think I understand what sabaki is,


I've written so much about this that I don't want to repeat myself again.

But the steps are:

1. You recognise you are in a bad situation where simple, obvious moves will not do.

2. You recognise also that the best you can achieve will be a temporary solution. You want respite.

3. You look for a clever, sneaky, roundabout, temporising way out (e.g. a tesuji, a sacrifice).

4. If you find it and the result is acceptable you have achieved sabaki, i.e. you have coped.

If 3 and 4 are not available to you, play elsewhere. When you are in a hole, stop digging.


There is no specific technical element to it, although of course certain techniques such as sacrifice may occur often, and certain tesujis tend to be prominent. But no element id required always to be there. It's like living. There are 1001 ways to live, but living does not require any specific move, trick or method.

If you need a permanent solution when you are in a bad way, i.e. you need to live, the equivalent Japanese term is shinogi, which may well use some of the same techniques as sabaki but the end result is what distinguishes the two terms. Sabaki and shinogi can often seem to be the same thing, but this difference between temporary and permanent is what I would regard as the crucial difference. Whether that difference matters to is, of course a matter of choice.

To be more explicit, I use 'cope' in real life when a solution I have found works for the time being, but I recognise I will probably have to do a proper job later. I have deferred my worries to the future. If I have a bad situation but I dig in (one of the meanings of shinogu is to endure) and as a result 'tide over' the situation (another meaning of shinogu), I probably don't have to worry about the future anymore.

In short, sabaki and shinogi are concepts, not techniques.

SAs to momentum, the image I like to use is Newton's balls. Make of that what you will :)


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