Go Back - Game 2

Redundant · **#41**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White prevents a double wing. High because I feel like it.

cyclops · **#42**

I don't like W's reply to my B13. W's double wing needs to be invaded before he perfects his moyo. But if B invades at c14, W@c15 will make him heavy with too little space to extend comfortably. B will get a weak group. To prevent W's double wing I goback.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Next B a & b are miai.

EdLee · **#43**

As this is my first Go Back experience, please let me know if I cannot undo.
I revert :b13:

back to R10 -- my reasons are below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

(1)

at R10 is a good move. It is the correct direction from B's upper right shimari, and it is a big point.

cyclops wrote:

I don't like W's reply to my B13.

(2) Notice "B13" is also a co-ordinate on the board (x), so it is ambiguous. :b13:

is more clear.
(3) :w14:

at K16 is not a problem for B. It is a big point, a normal opening move.

cyclops wrote:

W's double wing needs to be invaded before he perfects his moyo.

(4) Yes and No -- Yes, it's good if B does something about W's double wing.
No, W cannot "perfect" his moyo in 1 move, so it's not as bad as cyclops thinks.

cyclops wrote:

But if B invades at c14, W@c15 will make him heavy with too little space to extend comfortably. B will get a weak group.

(5) I disagree. Here's why: yes, the 2-space jump to :b19:

is a bit inefficient for B,
but this is still reasonable because B is invading (after getting the big point :b13:

),
and the resulting B group is not very heavy and not very weak; it is OK.
This result is reasonable for both B and W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

cyclops wrote:

To prevent W's double wing I goback.

(6) Your

approach at F17 is also a big move and is playable. But I prefer the original :b13:

at R10 for the reasons above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

perceval · **#44**

This game seems really interesting, lots of discussion.
I doubt it will go very far because design by consensus is terribly slow (i live in Switerland ... ), but i will learn for sure. :geek:

I will not go back on Ed Lees move but i wondered after trying to play R10 at move 11 if :b13:

couldnt be high ? (ie :b13:

@Q10 instead of R10 ?)

i like Loons suggestion of a bit of kibitz before an undo to avoid strings of undos in the future.

EdLee · **#45**

perceval wrote:

if

couldnt be high ? (ie :b13:

@Q10 instead of R10 ?)

Yes,

is also playable high at Q10, but I prefer low at R10 because of the cash:
there's no giant moyo anywhere -- 3/4 of the board is cash: upper right, lower left, bottom, lower right -- so, just take cash. :mrgreen:

nagano · **#46**

I suggest we continue the game with sgf, it's a lot easier.
[sgf-full](;CA[hz-gb-2312]SZ[19]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[oc];W[qo];B[dp];W[pq];B[kq];W[cn];B[fp];W[bp];B[cq];W[ck];B[qj];W[jd]
(;B[cf]LB[cc:A]C[Can we agree to continue with EdLee's move here? The only other option I see here is A, and that doesn't look promising to me.])
(;B[cc];W[cd];B[dc];W[ec];B[eb];W[fc];B[fb];W[gc];B[bd];W[be];B[bc];W[cf]
(;B[oj];W[fj]C[This seems unacceptable.])
(;B[dj];W[dk];B[fj];W[ek];B[fh];W[gl]C[To me this seems better for white.])))[/sgf-full]

cyclops · **#47**

There is a Many Universes theory in physics saying that at every instant every universe splits into every possible future. All these universe then lives next to each other. Well I am not going to be stubborn and split the game into two parallel ones. Ed's reasons now make me feel at ease with R13.

cyclops · **#48**

nagano wrote:

I suggest we continue the game with sgf, it's a lot easier.

OK, though I am not a big fan of your preferred method.
To speed up I added the 3 "obvious" next moves. I am not sure playing sequences is acceptable in Goback. So if you dislike pls go back.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1020[/sgf-full]

As a child I always played chess against myself. Mostly I won.

nagano · **#49**

I agree with that sequence, but will leave it for others to object if so desired. Certainly other moves can be considered.

topazg · **#50**

FWIW, I would have been in favour of this reduction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , B . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

nagano · **#51**

@topazg Interesting move, certainly worth considering. How would you respond after the diagonal contact?

perceval · **#52**

it is already super hard to know what is the actual position... :-?

Topazg you are proposing an alternative to the game, but not an actual "go back" is that correct ?

topazg · **#53**

These were the moves I'd been considering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 1 . 5 . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The second one is kinda awkward though.

@perceval: I guess one of the GoBack's got rejected on the basis of this general sequence being unacceptable - so this _might_ trigger a correction, even though that hadn't really been my intent when I posted.

nagano · **#54**

I mostly agree with that sequence, but as white in both cases I would double hane, and in the first diagram I would play black 33 a point closer to the weaker group. I think white solidifies too much territory then.

topazg · **#55**

nagano wrote:

I mostly agree with that sequence, but as white in both cases I would double hane, and in the first diagram I would play black 33 a point closer to the weaker group. I think white solidifies too much territory then.

Hmmm, double hane does look better in the first one. However, I would still rather take Black here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 5 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the second one, there's no double hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 7 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 0 O 5 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White's going to have a wall like that, neutralising it with a living group and hopefully some central influence feels fine - Black's position in the top right is very good, the lower left looks fine, and White's lost the majority of his development potential - he's got cash, but it doesn't have huge prospects for becoming a lot more cash - am I mis-evaluating here?

nagano · **#56**

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, and I looked too quickly at your second diagram, assuming it was starting with the same move. What I meant was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For that matter, I don't think the attachment works at all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think this is too hard to deal with.

topazg · **#57**

nagano wrote:

I'm sorry, I should have clarified, and I looked too quickly at your second diagram, assuming it was starting with the same move. What I meant was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ah, yes, no problem, I don't Black can extend in this direction at all.

nagano wrote:

For that matter, I don't think the attachment works at all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm27 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 2 6 X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think this is too hard to deal with.

I agree, this does look severe.

cyclops · **#58**

perceval wrote:

it is already super hard to know what is the actual position... :-?

Topazg you are proposing an alternative to the game, but not an actual "go back" is that correct ?

Time to decide. Do we proceed from here or is there someone (Topasz?) going back?

nagano · **#59**

[sgf-full](;CA[hz-gb-2312]SZ[19]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[oc];W[qo];B[dp];W[pq];B[kq];W[cn];B[fp];W[bp];B[cq];W[ck];B[qj];W[jd]
(;B[cf]LB[cc:A]C[nagano\:Can we agree to continue with EdLee's move here? The only other option I see here is A, and that doesn't look promising to me.]
;W[ce])
(;B[cc];W[cd];B[dc];W[ec];B[eb];W[fc];B[fb];W[gc];B[bd];W[be];B[bc];W[cf]
(;B[oj];W[fj]C[nagano\: This seems unacceptable.])
(;B[dj];W[dk];B[fj];W[ek];B[fh];W[gl]C[nagano\: To me this seems better for white.])))[/sgf-full]
I believe the other path was intended to be a side note.

cyclops · **#60**

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1029[/sgf-full]
Otherwise white will play there and have a favourable exchange.

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