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Old 2010-04-16, 04:01 PM   #71
xDragon
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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i think itd be too good for my opponent if i let him play around there

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Old 2010-04-16, 04:02 PM   #72
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Never for players

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Is it just me, or would this have been better here? Seems like black will just eat the white stone now with a ladder around E15. Or is there a better response for black/a better play for white here?
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:02 PM   #73
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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Have to defend.
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:04 PM   #74
xDragon
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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ok, i remember the end of this now,
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:11 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Never for players

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Is it just me, or would this have been better here? Seems like black will just eat the white stone now with a ladder around E15. Or is there a better response for black/a better play for white here?
Hidden Section:

I also think this is better for white. Perception said in a previous post that he thinks the result is bad for black if he captures in a ladder but I disagree.
I'm also surprised none of them considered F16 has an alternative for move 31. I think it's better for black than the fight he could have faced.
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:15 PM   #76
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not for players
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Wow, white turned a great fight to a horrific situation. And I thought he said he didn't like the situation after avalanche...

There's not even a ladder here, black captures that stone in a knight's move net. Extending the cutting stone was the absolute only move imo.

Edit: I read wrong, keima doesn't seem to work. However, even with a ladder, Black does great here.
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Last edited by Aphelion; 2010-04-16 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:33 PM   #77
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i have to leave for a bit but this is my idea. not for perception obviously.

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 2 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

5 could be changed to the tiger mouth above it as well, but i think i can escape the top or right. no time to read too much right now
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:36 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Thank you Fwiffo, that resolves my confusion at Sol's remark. I need to work on learning that sort of thing.

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I should add that it's a general idea, not something specific to this formation. Playing a pincer becomes a better idea when your corner stone has support along the side (whether it's a 3-4 or a 4-4). And it's often a good idea for the approaching player to try to avoid a pincer (e.g. by a distant approach to a 3-4 stone) or to have a plan in place when a pincer is expected.

Here are some examples.


White dodges the pincer in the Kobayashi formation
Show Diagram Code[go]$$B White dodges the pincer in the Kobayashi formation
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$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code


The distant approach gives up a little bit locally, but avoids the pincer which would be favorable for black here.


Black gets an ideal formation from his pincer
Show Diagram Code[go]$$W Black gets an ideal formation from his pincer
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . X 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code



White screws with black's plan
Show Diagram Code[go]$$W White screws with black's plan
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 9 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code
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Old 2010-04-16, 04:40 PM   #79
sol.ch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xDragon View Post
i have to leave for a bit but this is my idea. not for perception obviously.

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 2 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

5 could be changed to the tiger mouth above it as well, but i think i can escape the top or right. no time to read too much right now
Hidden Section:
5 is pretty much the worst way to try and exploit the weakness at the bottom:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X e X a . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O 2 O 4 X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . c . . . 1 3 b d . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

After 2, if Black tries to retrieve the stone with 3, after 4 Black must either give up the 2 stones or let White break out ('a', 'b' miai). Both options are terrible, since making the 2nd eye is much easier after eating the 2 stones with 'c' and 'd' available. And I'm not even including the weakness at 'e'. If Black just plays 'e' after 2 and only offer up 1 stone instead of 2, White can still play 3 and has both 'c' and 'd' once again for making the 2nd eye.
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Old 2010-04-16, 05:38 PM   #80
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X W . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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AH! I think he made a mistake. It's either a mistake or he's trying to avoid a fight. I don't really see much choice other than cutting and capturing a stone.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X a . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . b X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code


I can cut at a and until he captures that stone I can play a ladder breaker around b. I don't see playing a ladder breaker there as being very profitable at this time though. It could give some support to my stones at the bottom maybe but I can live without it I think.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X 4 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 1 3 5 7 . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]Hide Diagram Code


That stone can't escape. Now it seems there was no point in him playing that stone in the first place.
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