(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[华以刚 Hua Yigang]PB[桥本宇太郎 Hashimoto Utaro]BR[9p]EV[1975 China Japan weiqi match]C[铭心棋局06/67_华以刚2/4 徐莹 
天元围棋
"Games engraved into your heart"

Hua Yigang 华以刚 9p 2/4 (interviewed by Xu Ying 徐莹 5p)
tianyuanweiqi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmYA_iO4vKs&list=PL9mIJo0rMVCNoH_4on5KsrblAzzD3eTjM&index=4


Translated by Daniel Hu 6d 20220928

Xu: Passing through the memory tunnel, sharing the player's go thinking and clever ideas, feeling the happiness, anger, grief and joy (喜怒哀乐) of go games on and off the board.

Hello to our viewers I am Xu Ying. Welcome to entering with me into today's heart engraved games.

Today the guest we have invited for everyone is Master Hua Yigang. Master Hua is reviewing for us games from 20-30 years ago.

I think that games from this time helps us understand the state of weiqi at that time between China and Japan.

Hua: There is a saying that one drop of water shows the magnificents of the rivers, streams lakes, and seas. Right?

Xu: Right.

Hua: So in fact from these games you can find out how weiqi was played then.

Xu: Then Master Hua's opponents were all very famous players in Japan. Of course, they did send some weak players, but Master Hua's were all with very famous players.

Hua: mhm

Xu: Then the game that plays the leading role today, is one with Hashimoto Utaro

(photo: during a game of the 7th Honinbo final between Hashimoto Utaro (right) and Takegawa Kaku)

I think this name reverberates like thunder.

Hua: Borrowing your speech, you said that everyone at the time was those Japanese players. Perhaps you haven't realised yourself, but for the audience, there must be Go fans who ask, why were there only China-Japan exchanges at the time, and now China-Korea exchanges?

Korean weiqi is so strong, why don't you exchange with them?

Xu: This question that Master Hua asked, if it were up to me to answer, based on my simple understanding of weiqi history, before because of China-Korea not having started exchanges, only after 1990 were the exchanges with Korea more lively and our understanding of Korean weiqi (baduk) increased.

But from magazines before, Korea must have also had weiqi popularisation and they also often sent many good players to Japan to stay to study weiqi. Is this right Master Hua?

Hua: It should be said that looking from hindsight, Korean weiqi, their time of development, particular recently, before that, I also can't express it clearly, were actually similar to the state of Chinese weiqi.

When we had our forebears, such as Nanliubeiguo and others such as Gu Shuiru, Wei Haihong, Wang Youchen, these were all seniors who taught me.

(photo: 1965, back row left to right Wang Youchen, Liu Dihuai, Wang??. Middle row left to right Gu Shuiru, ???? watching the young Chen Zude playing with Lin ?)

Before them, slightly younger, was Cho Namchul (Zhao Nanzhe), 赵南哲.

(photo: 1962, young Cho Chikun at uncle Cho Namchul (first right) 's accompanying going to Japan to study weiqi)

Xu: Cho Chikun's uncle (father's younger brother)

Hua: It should be mother's younger brother I feel.

Xu: In any case one of his elders.

Hua: Next, we had Chen Zude representing the growing up of this generation of weiqi players.

Well corresponding to Chen Zude was Kim In (Jin yin).

(photo: Kim In 金寅 (first right) and Lee Changho, Kim Seongjae 金升宰 discussing a game)

Xu: Oh, Kim In was often the team leader of the team of Korean representatives.

Hua: Yes, his ?? was often Kim (Gold) to us, because In is a tiger, year of tiger. We normally just called him Kim Tiger.

Because in Korean and Japanese, both In and Tiger are pronounced Tora.

Xu: Oh.

Hua: There is a film called Hu, Hu, Hu right?

Xu: Yes.

Hua: In fact their pronunciation is just Tora, Tora, Tora.

Xu: Oh, what you just told us is really growing our knowledge. Because the word In must be because he was born in the year of the Tiger, so he was named this way.

Hua: Basically so. Later when Nie Weiping appeared for us, they appeared Cho Hunhyun.

Xu: But in fact, your opponent for the game we are about the discuss actually also has some related origin to him. Although he was the same generation as Master Nie, but I feel that his seniority he is very high.

Hua: That's so. Cho Hunhyun's seniority. He had two senior fellow apprentices.

Xu: Famous at the highest level.

Hua: One is my opponent today, Hashimoto Utaro. The other was our Mount Tai and North Star (revered figure 泰斗) Go Seigen.

(photo: Hashimoto Utaro and Go Seigen at the newly set up Kansai Kiin chatting)

Xu: Right. Hence, Cho Hunhyun's seniority is high.

Hua: So we must ask with such a high seniority, how could these three people appear together? Who could possibly be their teacher?

Xu: To speak of this, if we slightly understand China-Japan-Korea weiqi history, we will come to another person, that is elder Master Kensaku Segoe.

(photo: Segoe Kensaku (first left) and Suzuki Tamejirou analysing a Go game)

The last heir to the Honinbo House, that is Honinbo Shusai,  they were basically the same generation, of course they were different ages. In any case, when Shusai was alive, he was also alive. And for quite some time. I won't explain the exact ages today.

Overall, between them they had many contacts and discussions, and events were completed by them. 

This Kensaku Segoe was like a representative of the newly added strength of the Nihon Kiin, this sort of elder.

Xu: Mm.

Hua: To speak of this person Kensaku Segoe. He even had a very open-minded way of thinking.

Xu: Of course we have spoken of Go Seigen, Cho Hunhyun, of course not to speak of Japanese players. In fact, just from these two players, we can see that their view of the world was a rather international one. As long as you have weiqi skill, I will want to support you.

Hua: This is one side. Another side is why he accepted Go Seigen as a disciple.

Xu: Why was this?

Hua: Why? He said that China was the original land that created weiqi. So if I can accept a disciple from the creator land, I feel it is very honourable and meaningful.

Xu: Oh.

Hua: And then, following history, the main way weiqi moved from China to Japan mostly has two channels. One is the ambassadors dispatched from from Japan to the Tang dynasty. They brought memories of Chinese weiqi. This is one channel, perhaps a way of speaking.

Another is that the ocean at the time was very 

Xu: Developed.

Hua: Not developed.

Xu: Not developed.

Hua: The sea route wasn't so open. If it wasn't this not open, Monk Ganjin wouldn't have only been successful at the 6th attempt (to reach Japan?).

Xu: Right.

Hua: Right? Including him going blind by the sea's rain. If it was open he wouldn't have had to suffer this. This means it wasn't so open.

Then from the Chinese mainland, or going to the Korean peninsula, which is closer? That is clear? If we go on land to the southern part of Korea, then going to Japan is much closer.

Xu: Yes, so it should be said that our second route is to first go to Korea's peninsula.

Hua: In fact, I think that all these are historical hypotheses. They say from a theoretical perspective, how could Chinese people have gone to Japan from the sea?

This of course is something that history researchers think is a subject of interest. How exactly did our Chinese weiqi get to Japan?

Xu: But for Master Segoe, he thought that it must have gone via Korea before Japan. So he had the opinion that China was the mother country of weiqi, and Korea was

Hua: Weiqi's transit country.

Xu: So he respected both very much.

Hua: Now Hashimoto Utaro must have been due to their (Japan's) internal origins, so he accepted him as a disciple.

Xu: Hmm. 

Hua: So to speak of Kensaku Segoe. Today we speak of Hashimoto Utaro, but in passing we speak of Kensaku Segoe. That is, Kensaku Segoe, he was a very. I said he was a very liberal minded player.

At the time there was 5p player called Jinshang Xiaoping (maybe means Kohei Inoue). He heard that China produced a genius, Go Seigen, so he came to China, probably played 3 games with him. His opponent at the time was a standard 5p from Japan, playing 3 games, all no komi.

Xu: Hmm. 

Hua: The weiqi not only did Jinshang Xiaoping lose, but he personally recorded the contents of the games himself. At the time, China perhaps didn't even have a reliable game recorder.

Xu: Couldn't even find one. Haha.

Hua: Go Seigen himself didn't know how to record. A little boy that didn't understand anything, who was done when the game finished.

The result was that the teacher recorded.

Jinshang Xiaoping brought these game records back, gave them to Kensaku Segoe to look.

Xu: At a glance, amazed.

Hua: Wow, this kid is so strong. He asked how he was taught by.

Jinshang Xiaoping told him that there was noone in the vicinity who could teach him.  Probably he was a warlord, later said to be Duan Qirui, one of his family's followers/visitors (门客).

Go Seigen's status at the time was this, someone's else's visitor.

At the warring states period, we often learn of the Meng Changjun and so on, whose clan had however many thousand followers on their doorstep. ziruide? It was this state. So then.

Xu: Of course, he had elders like Gu Shuiru to teach him. 

Hua: But perhaps up to that point in time, he had already surpassed them. They simply couldn't guide him. At the time, when Go Seigen went to China he was already China's number 1. I mean when he went to Japan.

Xu: Yes.

Hua: Then Segoe had to sign Go Seigen to Japan. Then came a (?fa3wu4zheng3? legal testimony?) officer that dealt with entering a country (入境). He also had to inspect you. Why have you gotten a Chinese child bringing him to Japan. He said he was good at playing weiqi. In result the officer that was dealing with this raised a very serious problem.

Xu: What problem?

Hua: He said, yo, you say he is very talented at weiqi. And you know that currently weiqi has already become our Japan's national identity. In Japanese, weiqi is Japan's national identity, a national art.

Xu: Rather like their sumo wrestling.

Hua: He had already accepted it as their own, like Chinese characters, from the western ocean, they called it language from outside. Using Chinese characters, they call it kana (artificial name), borrowed from China. 

So from the principles, he couldn't call this language from outside. If you turn Japanese language into Han (Chinese) script in Japan, saying it is language from abroad, Japanese people's teeth will drop out. 

Which means that you don't understand Japanese culture at all. You can't be received courteously with discussions. This sort of situation.

So the legal testimony official asked him, you say his weiqi is good, then he has potential in the future right? Ok, I accept all this, in any case I don't understand weiqi, ok. But have you thought at all that he is very good, as if he was a bouquet of flowers, but if he truly surpasses Japanese people, have you considered this possibility?

Xu: Haha. How did our elder Kensaku Segoe reply?

Hua: He said this is exactly what I am awaiting.

Xu: (omg) Oh. (silence). From this speech, I can truly feel that this elder that we hold in esteem, his ideals weren't that of ordinary ideals.

Hua: Well I have already retired. At the time, I couldn't meet Kensaku Segoe. But reviewing this history, that is to say, these types of people, in any place, there are all different sorts of groups of people.

Just as Mao Zedong said, as long as a place has people, there will be many different types. To speak that the people of a certain place as definitely being of a certain sort is extremely harmful.

Xu: But I thought that just because elder Kensaku Segoe had this kind of ideal that really caused weiqi to have the development it has today.

For example, if there was no Go Seigen, then perhaps he wouldn't have beaten everyone in Japan to the point of being unrivalled, and wouldn't have attracted the importance they placed on it, and because of this, China would have tried to develop and improve this.

Hua: Yes.

Xu: So many things have a necessary connection between them.

Hua: So Hashimoto Utaro, when he reminisced about his teacher, maybe it was just at the banquet of this time I played weiqi with him, when he was invited to give a speech, he spoke of his teacher.

He didn't necessarily speak of what I just said about the official situation, but he spoke of weiqi originating from China, and it is good. We are neighbours and should be friendly. This concept, Mr Hashimoto Utaro told us that these teachings of the deceased teacher, he would always remember in his mind. He felt he couldn't not abide by them, and even more so couldn't violate them. This was something I still have a strong impression of. That is, how he spoke of his teacher. That is, regarding the students around, I must follow his example.

Xu: I felt that whether from his activities, made great efforts (like a mountain?), see how at the time, 1978, Hashimoto Utaro was already at the venerable age of 71 years. To speak of this, many Go fans would think that a professional player aged 71 years would have retired long before.

Hua: Yes

Xu: But at this time, he was still competing and at the highest levels.

Hua: And even leading teams to visit China.

Xu: Right. This game was which time you played against him? Was it the first time?

Hua: The 3rd time. Before, because I participated in, it wasn't a formal exchange organised by the Yomiuri Shimbun, but rather because a temporarily organised visit.

Xu: Ah. In principle, it should have been a visit every other year.

Hua: Oh no, not this. This was a one time he send a team to come. This was the situation. It should be said this wasn't inferior to the standard exchanges. I played 2 games before with him. I was very childish then. Playing until this game, I think that this game was a bit like weiqi.

Xu: Master Hua is very modest.

Hua: It started to take on some form of weiqi. So, that is, in the end, my luck was quite good.

But I spoke, with Kansai Kiin players, to speak of when I had played 3 games with Hashimoto Utaro. Because Hashimoto Utaro was overall chief of the Kansai Kiin, they were all very shocked. They said you even played 3 games with our chief.

Xu: So jealous. 

Hua:
Many of us haven't even played one game.

Xu: Right. So this was a very rare opportunity. And it should be said that Hashimoto Utaro was representing the highest level Japanese Go had reached.

Hua: That is of course.

Xu: Then, I think that on Hashimoto's person there are many stories about wartime or post-war history.

For example, we know best that atomic bomb game, one of the players was him.

Hua: No mistake, that's right. That was US people, when they threw the Hiroshima nuclear bomb, it was against Iwamoto Kaoru.

Xu: This was also. Mister Iwamoto Kaoru worked a lot on Go in Europe.

Hua: Europe, but mostly South America.

(photo of Iwamoto Kaoru)

At Brazil, he founded a weiqi centre, relieving Nihon Kiin's financial difficulties, Iwamoto Kaoru formerly brought his income from real estate. No matter where it came from, to provide 500 million Japanese yen. Although the value of a single yen is small, but 500 million.

Xu: It is also an extreme concept.

Hua: An extreme donation. Yes, in other words to support one's own company, one's organisation. And then he founded a centre in South America. He very much liked South America.

Xu: Beautiful, pretty.

Hua: He felt the natural conditions and social customs were good there. He just wanted to popularise weiqi there. He felt that to always stay in hotels there. Other people thought that maybe he was very skilled at real estate, thought that the land was very good at the time, so simply built a weiqi centre there.

Xu: It counted as an investment.

Hua: Yes, in fact it was also economic for him. Later when an event started, including if he went himself, he wouldn't stay in a hotel, but stay in a his own centre there. When I visited Brazil, I also went there. It was also very meaningful.

Xu: So we can say these two people were forebears that planted trees. They were the forebears who having planted trees, at our Asian Mind Sports games, we also receive many South American Go enthusiasts in a grand meeting.

So perhaps this has a tight connection with all the work done before.

Hua: Another funny thing is that to speak of these two people now, one is Hashimoto Utaro, another is Iwamoto Kaoru. These two people, their ages, this life,

Xu: Close

Hua: Iwamoto Kaoru was slightly older. They even without scheduling it, met up in a restaurant in Guilin, China.

Xu: This is a sort of unclear predestined relationship.

So the stories that happened to these two people were very interesting.

We haven't finished the story from before. The atomic bomb game was played by them two. They were just playing the very important Honinbo final.

Hua: Best of n.

Xu: This story, why don't you tell us a bit?

Hua: They were playing a game. From far away heard the sound of a bomb. When the sound happened, of course they didn't realise.

Xu: Of course, both ears were shut to what happened outside the window. 两耳不闻窗外是. 

Hua: But in the end, support workers heard the sound clearly, so probably someone stopped the game. After it stopped, they continued playing until the end.

Now why would Hiroshima attract bombing at the time? Because Hiroshima was the navy department at the time.

Xu: That is, the story we told everyone at the time was that at such a dangerous time. The two players whole minds were invested in the game. In fact when the bomb had already exploded.

(photo: 3rd Honinbo final Hashimoto Utaro and Iwamoto Kaoru's match played during the atomic bomb explosion at Hiroshima)

Then after dealing with other things, the two players sat at the board, determined to finish this game.

Actually those war events isn't something for us to discuss today, but rather the spirit and drive these two players had for the game.

Hua: mhm, that's right.

Xu: I feel that this something everyone admires them for.

Hua: mhm.

Xu: mhm.

Hua: It can be said that Hashimoto Utaro spend his entire life on weiqi. Until his later days, he had a habit (嗜好). Every day, he had to compose a tsumego problem.

Xu: In fact, this is an addiction for him, but it left a precious resource for later people.

Hua: Leaving for later people, that is our esteem for him. But for him, it wasn't necessarily so.

To compose one every day would

Xu: Very difficult.

Hua: Many topics might be basic tesuji. So he would compose them in together.

Xu: Oh.

Hua: He used this method to exercise his brain.

Xu: Mm.

Hua: Another hobby of Hashimoto Utaro was to like running.

Compared to today's WHO and many doctors, medical world's recommendations, it was completely identical.

Whenever he had free time, he would walk.

Another person even photographed Hashimoto walking in a quite road, how did he walk?

Tied to a sandbag.

Xu: Practicing his own leg strength?

Hua: Tying a sandbag. Adding some weight.

Xu: In fact I think that he really had integrated activities 动静结合. Because long times at the Go board, especially the matches in Japan at the time were all many hours.

Hua: Right.

Xu: How tiring. So you had to have a very good body and strength backing it up. So it isn't hard for everyone to understand.

So this game was 1978 August 15th. This game was Master Hua's 3rd time playing against the founder (奠基人) of the Kansai Kiin.

Hua: They called him a chief of chiefs? (总帅). Hashimoto Utaro was originally also at Tokyo. Without question. He was also a disciple of Kensaku Segoe, one of the founders of the Nihon Kiin right?

Of course he should have stayed in the Nihon Kiin. As for what happened later between them. This isn't something for later generations to comment on.

Xu: But he led Go players to go beyond the limits and leave, moving and setting up a new flag.

Hua: Yes, these are the facts. But Kansai Kiin only had this little difference. At the time, there was no internet. The skill of Nihon Kiin was relatively

Xu: Stronger.

Hua: Reached the news relatively often. Relatively strong.

Xu: Mm.

Hua: Hashimoto Utaro could be said to be always deeply in trouble, never sparing even his life, not merely in fights.

Xu: Right.

Hua: For example he was like this, two days before his death, he was still playing a match, after the match even won a 6p.

Xu: Oh, really incredible.

Hua: That is, just as he was dying, two days before, he was still playing professional go, professional competitions. Even winning that game.

Xu: Oh.

Hua: Drawing a full stop to his life.

Xu: This life was born for weiqi.

Hua: To speak of Hashimoto Utaro, I can't speak for others of course, I don't say that "oh this generation of players is however this or that", I don't represent others. I only represent myself. Who else can I represent. I'll just express the feelings of this time, my gratitude, respect, cherishing of memories, these deep feelings.

In fact this speech, below it there is another which is common in today's Japanese.

But, I suspect that, I haven't checked this aspect, I only know how it is said in Japanese, their pronounciation and particular meaning.

But I suspect that our two country's cultures are shared.

In Japanese, there is a word en1, of enhui (favour 恩惠), fan3 of fanhui (return 返回). En1 fan3, what does this mean? In Japanese, it refers to the people who have taught you, especially your masters, you must return this en.

Xu: In fact it is actually gan3en1 (grateful feeling)

Hua: ganen, huanen, to have a ganen attitude. But in Japanese, there is a special word for this.

In the weiqi world, it is quite tricky. Sometimes when someone writes a book, especially when they defeat their master, the title is that they have returned en towards their master.

Xu: Oh qinchuyilanshengyilang?? is the most respectful return you can give you a master. 

Hua: For them, it is the greatest solace (藯籍 wei4ji2). Their greatest wish is for you to become competent, not for you to become a useless weakling (脓包 nong2bao1).

Xu: So Master Hua learned a lot from the last 2 games.

Hua: Didn't play well.

Xu: And received a lot from the games.

Hua: Yes. In some sense, I did enfan in this game.

Xu: Now let's see how Master Hua enfan this game.

(both laughing, sort of).

Hua: Good.

Xu: 

This game was Hashimoto Utaro holding B stones, both sides komi of 2 1/2 stones.

Hua: Equivalently to, yes

Xu: 5 points.

Hua: For the B side, to play to 4 points more on the board, because they get the last neutral point, it becomes a draw/jigo.

Filler: As a professional player, everyone has important games that have been engraved in their heart. These games are perhaps one's symbolic milestones (标志性的里程碑) as one matures (成长) (Chen Zude), or perhaps they are victories that are the pride of a lifetime, or perhaps they are the turning point in recovering (重获) confidence in a confused period (Chang Hao).

They are worth players collecting at the bottom of their heart (珍藏心底), and even more worth bringing it out from one's memories, sampling it and appreciating it (品茗赏析) with go enthusiasts.

Go is as life, life is as Go. Games engraved in one's heart. Make an appointment with Xu Ying.
]
;B[qd]C[Hua: Let's look at the game now.]
;W[dd]
;B[dq]C[Xu: Master Hua, with regards to Hashimoto Utaro's weiqi style, he counted as rather light and flexible.

Hua: Yes, that sort of meaning.]
;W[qq]
;B[oc]C[Hua: This game, clearly has Sakata Eio's influence, W played the 3-3.

Xu: W is playing cross-fuseki, 3-4.

]
;W[co]C[Hua: Low approach, standard.


28:37])