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Old 2010-03-29, 10:59 AM   #71
magicwand
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname View Post
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . a O . O . B . |
$$ | . . . . X . 1 . . O . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Well, the kick is bad, I think. Attach on top seems poor too, due to the wedge at 'a', so perhaps a cap is right. Not hard for black to make eyeshape this way, though.
Hidden Section:

you are absolutely right kick sucks. but 3 is so loose i dont like it either.. i am not sure what will happen..but below look like the best response.


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 a O . O . B . |
$$ | . . . . X . 1 . . O . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

You can remove these ads if you create an account.

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Old 2010-03-29, 07:22 PM   #72
sumiyaka
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Default Move 35

I lent my sword
To anyone
Willing to pay the price
No regrets for
What I've done
A mercenary's life
--- Amon Amarth, The Hero



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . B X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Hidden Section:


White makes an interesting move. However, it is gote, so I get choose again.

The move I am considering are marked with below.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . b X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

First lets consider 'a'. I suspect white is prepared to ignore it for now, or why would he risk I play here?

Lets look at the difference between black and white there.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . B x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a x y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y y |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If black moves there he gets 3 points, with potential for 3 more if he plays at 'a' when white descends.

If white goes there:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . y 1 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y x x x |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If white goes there he gets 3 points for sure, and can pick up 6 if he moves to a. This is a total of 9 points.

If I look at this added together, its a 6 - 15 point move. My analysis here is a little shaky -- because its not clear to me if it is going to be sente or gote at this point in the game, but that seems to be where it is.

Move 'b'. I believe that is completely sente. If white ignores, black 3 starts to shake up whites position no matter which route the fight goes.

It also has the benefit of reinforcing my soft right side. This is starting to become important. This is probably where I will move, but I want to look some more at the fight.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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Last edited by sumiyaka; 2010-03-29 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 2010-03-30, 12:39 AM   #73
Aphelion
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No one respects the 3-3 point?!
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:58 AM   #74
kex
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You pose tough problems for me. Again, only some considerations for now, the move should follow later.

Hidden Section:


The time to dive in deep is coming

Let's first see what is probably coming, when I defend:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . 1 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . B X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Black builds a huge moyo. Now it is becoming too big, so I have to do something. First, the deep invasion:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . a O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O 6 X 5 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If black does not give the corner, white continues. next "a" and "b" are kind of miai - cannot estimate the actual point differences. If black cuts at "a", white can force a couple times at "c", though, and attack the top black group at the same time. Starting from "b" leads to a semeai with the black corner against white. Where my reading skills are again lacking power.

Another option for an invasion:


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O 5 X 6 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . 4 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

... fails miserably:


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X 2 X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 O 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 8 6 |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Yet another point to use: The problem with this is that after 6, it is beyond my skills to live or escape.


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

The problem is that because of the marked black stone, this will not work. (On the other hand, the marked stone is speculation anyway, so this might be useful later, depending on what black will play)


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

So - returning to the first invasion. What if black tries to drive out, instead of sealing in...

One option. White cannot play 9 at 10, because is late for one liberty


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 6 0 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 9 5 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Another variation:





Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 0 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 8 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is so much better for black, that it is much more likely to happen. Black just earned a good amount of extra solid territory.

Have to take a break again, in case some other ideas pop into my mind.
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:07 AM   #75
topazg
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Hidden for 10 moves, and for Sumiyaka then:

Hidden Section:
"Move 'b'. I believe that is completely sente". Ask yourself why? Move 3 only makes sense if it achieves more than swallowing up that single stone. White's got a group that can make at least one eye internally, and has already connected out to the middle. Your group at the top is fairly weak and will become weaker if you push around too hard. Always assume your opponent will gladly sacrifice any single stone you atari, and ask yourself what will happen if he picks the route to do so that leaves the least aji - are you happy with that result, bearing in mind it will cost one free move to your opponent to get it?



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . 4 O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Does Black really want this? 2 at "a" is possible I think as well - it's certainly big.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . 6 X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . 4 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . 5 3 O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is more interesting, but with "2" I'd definitely be happy going up to "6" and leaving the group in the middle hanging. Either way, Black's ignoring the big picture here I think. Obviously under the basis that this is sente I can understand playing it, but for gote there are some really big areas left:




Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I think you really want "a" before White gets "b", which is probably sente against your edge stone. Just because your opponent let you get it doesn't mean "c" is bad - it's _huge_, doubly so if your opponent gives it to you in sente by blocking (and leaves really big local endgame if he doesn't).
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Last edited by topazg; 2010-03-30 at 04:20 AM. Reason: adding more ideas...
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Old 2010-03-31, 01:49 AM   #76
Joaz Banbeck
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Hidden Section:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sumiyaka View Post



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . . . . . y 1 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y x x x |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If white goes there he gets 3 points for sure, and can pick up 6 if he moves to a. This is a total of 9 points.

If I look at this added together, its a 6 - 15 point move. My analysis here is a little shaky -- because its not clear to me if it is going to be sente or gote at this point in the game, but that seems to be where it is.
Black at the 3-3 is a big move, way more than 15 points, at least 25, maybe 30.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . 3 . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Not only does it take a few points, but if white defends with 2, black plays 3.

Or white can try defending the gap, but black can slide under anytime.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . W . . O . 2 . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
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Old 2010-03-31, 04:00 AM   #77
kex
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Default move 36



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . W . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



Hidden Section:


Some more thoughts. Someone might wonder, why I don't consider this move:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . B X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

The problem is that even though this seems to strengthen the connection with the white stones, and even in sente, it actually strenghens black, and removes the possibility of using the weakness to make the invasion I thought about yesterday. Also, it allows black to secure the top group while attacking white, in sente!



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X 5 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . 6 . O 4 X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X 8 O . 7 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . 9 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . B X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Here, I have to say that playing this Malkovich game seems a bit like cheating. I thought and felt 1 here would be bad, but how bad? When writing down the diagram it becomes much clearer. In a normal game, I would never notice...

And then the question, why choose the move I showed yesterday. There is no heavy thinking or any reading behind - just a question of shapes. The idea of using a table shape (second time at this part of the board) here appeals to me:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . W . W . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . W . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Also, it puts some pressure on the top group, so there is a chance black will respond, protecting the group, and allowing white to reduce the side. The problem is black can answer aggressively, and white has only the empty triangle to try to keep initiative:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X 2 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . 3 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

But anyway, let's assume that somehow white gets out from the top side with sente. How can white reduce black's huge moyo?

There could be some possibility of an arrogant invasion:


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Something can happen here. The sequences are too complicated for me, but as there is the cutting point at "a", too, something might well succeed. The problem of course is the white group at the top. How bad will it suffer? My guess is it will, but due to the turn at the marked stone, it should be able to get out.

And a less deep invasion or a reduction (borderline)?



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
This seems safer, and still making a huge damage to the black's side. If it comes to that, I might well make this move...
(7 and 9 are there to show there is still some weakness around, but since black can force by playing at "a", cutting black in two is unlikely to succeed. The purpose would be more like trying to establish a center-moyo.

But perhaps enough speculation already - I'll just make my first move and see what will happen.
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Old 2010-04-01, 08:10 PM   #78
sumiyaka
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Default Move 37

They were Duelin'
Duelin' Dalton
High or Low
It was the same
--Eagles, Duelin' Daltons

I'm in a bit of a hurry, analysis to follow...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X B . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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--
BELOW DIAGRAM ISN'T REAL... ABOVE FOR THE MOVE

I was sorely tempted to do the following... as a bit of an April Fools thing, claiming a misclick... but I wasn't sure how to "undo" it without hard feelings...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
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Last edited by sumiyaka; 2010-04-01 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 2010-04-05, 07:27 AM   #79
kex
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 731
Default move 38



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Hidden Section:


OK. So black played to secure the top side group.
At the moment it seems it is difficult for white to keep the top black group and the right side cut from each other any more, unless white plays on the top. But on the other hand, there is no urgent need for white to play on the top.

Let's estimate a bit


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . x . x . . . x . . . x . |
$$ | . . . . . . . x . x . . . x . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O x x O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . x , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | x x O . . . . . . X X . O . . . x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . |
$$ | x x X , . . . . . , . . . O x O . X . |
$$ | . . . x X . O x x O x x x . . x . x x |
$$ | . . . . x . x . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . . . x . x . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

black about 55, white about 40. So now I have to start resorting to drastic measures. Let's return to the arrogant invasion a few moves back...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 7 2 9 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

fails miserably


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X 5 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

After some reading, I could not find a working invasion here. But let's try another point:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . a 1 b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Three replies at least to consider.

Case "c" is easy - just jump out...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

then case "a"



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 1 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

further options, "a"


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 1 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 0 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
this works for white. Then "b"



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 1 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 5 4 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

there should be some potential for a good result for white on this line, too. then "c"



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 8 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 7 . 3 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I am not sure, but white could perhaps be able to capture black to flee. This would get messy, though.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 9 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 4 . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 6 2 X O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . c a . 9 7 5 O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Net at "a" does not work. Neither does at "b" nor "c".

So it seems the invasion at that point is a failure, too.

How about on the other side of the stone? After all, there are some friendly stones closer on that side...




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

There, "a" and "b" are miai and get something for white, both.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
And here, too - white could get something out of this, too.

So this is a move that I need to consider. Other options are going on the left side:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

"c" extends the top moyo and reduces black's potential on the left, and does not create additional weak groups. So it is a nice move to make. "a" and "b" isolate the black stone on the left, but the problem is that it is extremely easy for that stone to make base towards the top, while white will be cramped. So they are inferior to "c".

What is the expected outcome of "c"?




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 2 . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I.e. black creates a moyo box on the right. It is pretty safe for white to reduce it from some point like "a", but that would be gote-ish again, and make part of the moyo definite points.

I feel already losing the game. Thus, I choose the move making complications, playing on the right.
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Old 2010-04-05, 01:38 PM   #80
Joaz Banbeck
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White's last move seems a bit drastic. Ok, he is behind a bit, but there are still plenty of options.


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . X X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . , . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X , . . . . . , . . . O . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

A simple cap on the right prepares to invade/reduce, and white then starts getting points in the middle.
Or a probe in the lower left either helps an invasion of black's shimari if black takes the outside, or helps build a group on the lower left which will be stronger than black's group on the upper left.

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