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Old 2010-04-12, 01:08 PM   #181
fwiffo
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Methinks the bigger brothers are going to regret having chosen more complicated sequences, as they have to expend increasing numbers of prisoners to steer the little brothers along. The prisoner margin might end up getting out of whack more by luck than anything else.

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Old 2010-04-12, 01:26 PM   #182
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Just a cotton-pickin' minute... my second diagram in the hidden message can have B3 at 4 -- no need to feed white the corner.
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Old 2010-04-12, 01:38 PM   #183
enntwo
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X 2 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I do not think white's team would approve (2) in this diagram, yet if they did, surely black should continue at (4) instead of (3)?



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X 2 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

White cannot save his stone, and black is left with miai for attacking. If white protects his left-side stone, black can attack the top, and if white protects the top, black can then make the nice extension along the side.

My question though is this position:


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b X O O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 3 O . . # . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . a O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
One of the stronger players suggested this continuation, with a being exchanged for b. However, what is the outcome of the cut at c instead? It seems the marked stone makes this play viable.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 9 . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 X O O 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 3 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O 2 O O X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O 3 7 X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I am not sure how to value this result, maybe allowing white (8) here is too good, as whites center group is short on liberties so the fight after the hane at a seems difficult. If black is too passive then white would use it to help his bottom stone, or make the bottom stone light enough to be sacraficed.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 5 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 3 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
This result seems much better for black then giving up the corner directly without cutting.
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Old 2010-04-12, 01:45 PM   #184
topazg
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Move correction, wow, this is going to be an interesting game!



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
B:5
W:8

Hidden Section:
Seriously, this is what happens when Violence goes off and does his pincer at the top. This is going to be one messed up game

I expect something as follows:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This feels normal to me, and I assume Violence has an outstanding purpose with his pincer stone to render White's thickness useless. Feels soooo much like overplay, especially when shapenaji is sitting at the top board in the other team, who seems to specialise in this sort of messiness.


EDIT: Haha, thanks Daniel, that wasn't a Freudian typo expecting the worse, I just forgot the prisoner rules for a sec
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Last edited by topazg; 2010-04-12 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 2010-04-12, 01:48 PM   #185
daniel_the_smith
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White should have 8 prisoners, not 9. Unless Violence changes this one, too
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Old 2010-04-12, 02:16 PM   #186
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Hidden Section:

I did not see that move. But...




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 3 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I guess this is what we're heading towards. Yes, it's a nice wall, but the circled stone is still in the game...
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Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-12 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 2010-04-12, 02:23 PM   #187
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Accepted.
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Old 2010-04-12, 02:26 PM   #188
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I think Gresil is about to have his mind blown.
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Old 2010-04-12, 03:01 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
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Methinks the bigger brothers are going to regret having chosen more complicated sequences, as they have to expend increasing numbers of prisoners to steer the little brothers along. The prisoner margin might end up getting out of whack more by luck than anything else.
Hidden Section:
Yeah, this is part of what I was talking about when I was predicting that whoever corrects more moves will lose. Although if both sides are addicted to it, I guess neither one will have an incentive to stop...
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Old 2010-04-12, 04:13 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Violence View Post
Accepted.
If we didn't have the favorable ladders, I'd be worried.

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