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Old 2010-04-06, 04:36 PM   #101
Aphelion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresil View Post
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felt that it pressures white too much in a situation where he'll still be under pressure no matter where he plays next.
To Gresil:
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In my book that can only be good Pressure cracks things!

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Old 2010-04-06, 05:18 PM   #102
Bill Spight
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Hidden Section:



My sealed move
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc My sealed move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I'm with magicwand on liking this move. I would even pay 2 points. It may not be worth 2 points more than the corner, but it makes the opening relatively easy for Black.

When I was young I might not have made this play, being in the thrall of the dogma about the corner. But this point is urgent. If White makes a base here it weakens the Black stones in the bottom left.

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Last edited by Bill Spight; 2010-04-06 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 2010-04-06, 05:44 PM   #103
shapenaji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaz Banbeck View Post
@Shapenaji: You also can read Terr's and my hidden comments.
Roger Wilco!

EDIT: And I have one last question, am I limited to making comments on moves I make? or can I make general comments about the state of the game. It seems like I should only comment on moves I have a hand in, otherwise it's kind've bypassing the 4 points
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Last edited by shapenaji; 2010-04-06 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 2010-04-06, 06:59 PM   #104
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shapenaji View Post
Roger Wilco!

EDIT: And I have one last question, am I limited to making comments on moves I make? or can I make general comments about the state of the game. It seems like I should only comment on moves I have a hand in, otherwise it's kind've bypassing the 4 points
You can - and should - make comments about any phase of the game. Remember, Terr and I cannot read them. Players can read down, but not up.

EDIT: Not only can you read my comments, you probably should because there may be messages in there for you.
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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-06 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 2010-04-06, 07:24 PM   #105
magicwand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Spight View Post
Hidden Section:



My sealed move
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc My sealed move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

I'm with magicwand on liking this move. I would even pay 2 points. It may not be worth 2 points more than the corner, but it makes the opening relatively easy for Black.

When I was young I might not have made this play, being in the thrall of the dogma about the corner. But this point is urgent. If Black makes a base here it weakens the Black stones in the bottom left.
Hidden Section:

since black's move is too good to be true...white's original move(marked point) was better than marked white stone. so white lost 2 points to make worse move. just my opinion.
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Old 2010-04-06, 08:10 PM   #106
Joaz Banbeck
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Default Move #12B

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There are two places of great importance now: the upper left corner and the left side around the starpoint.


If we play in the corner, we'll have to stay with Terr's choice.
I was really hoping that Terr would play C12. It may not work here, but it is one of those obscure josekis that I happen to know. If he knew it, it would cost black a bunch of prisoners to wend their way through it.
But if he doesn't know it, it may well cost us a bunch of prisoners. So, if we play in the corner, I'll go with the stardard joseki.

I'd like to play the left side. But since Shapenaji did not move my stone there last move, he doen't think that it is of much greater importance. ( He could have played C10 or D10 for merely one prisoner. ) So I'll probably go with Shapenaji's implied opinion.


A totally different way of looking at it is this:
If I play in the corner, the corner will be safe, and the side stone will be outnumbered 3 or even 4 to 1.
If I play on the side, the side stones will still have to look for eyes, and the corner stone will soon be outnumbered 3 to 1. So either way, we'll have a badly outnumbered stone someplace. Playing in the corner gets us safe with territory. Playing on the side gets us sort of safe without territory.
That seems another vote for the corner.


So both lines of reasoning indicate that the corner is best. Plus, it is two points cheaper. Just to avoid any problems, lets see what the immediate future looks like after black's likely replies.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Black's side is still invadable, and we've got sente. We can play something like 'a' or 'b'. So...

I approve.
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Old 2010-04-06, 10:43 PM   #107
Gresil
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If Shapenaji approves, my move is
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Prisoners
Black: 2
White: 2

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Old 2010-04-06, 11:47 PM   #108
shapenaji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaz Banbeck View Post
There are two places of great importance now: the upper left corner and the left side around the starpoint.


If we play in the corner, we'll have to stay with Terr's choice.
I was really hoping that Terr would play C12. It may not work here, but it is one of those obscure josekis that I happen to know. If he knew it, it would cost black a bunch of prisoners to wend their way through it.
But if he doesn't know it, it may well cost us a bunch of prisoners. So, if we play in the corner, I'll go with the stardard joseki.
I think varying Terr's choice isn't worth the points at the moment. Although, as soon as they hane and we extend and then they fix, I think we should rush over to play "a", which Terr rejected earlier as making black stronger.

While it's true that the descent at "b" gives black a bit more strength, it's strength being used to attack the marked stone, which to my mind at least, isn't really that important, we shouldn't be spending time trying to help it if we don't have to. Speed is the name of the game, let them overconcentrate themselves trying to solidly capture it. Or, let them leave it open and leave us big moves later.

There's a thousand and one ways to obliterate black's left side territory IF we guarantee that he's stuck with bad aji. In this case, we would leave bad aji around "c","d", and "e" which will make escape rather easy if we want it, or allow us to build a strong center facing structure if the game progresses that way.





Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . h . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . g . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X c X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

black's press at "f" could be responded to with "g" or "h"

a black pincer at g would lead to a running fight, which is what I'm after anyway



Quote:

I'd like to play the left side. But since Shapenaji did not move my stone there last move, he doen't think that it is of much greater importance. ( He could have played C10 or D10 for merely one prisoner. ) So I'll probably go with Shapenaji's implied opinion.
Well, I actually got the rules backward on that part, I assumed that a DOUBLE-Change was worth an additional 4 points, and a single change (Joaz neglects and I make a fix), was worth an additional 1. However, I think it's too early to be helping our lone white stone at D7, black can easily live in the corner, which would make that white stone useless. We need to press black first and see how he responds.


Quote:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Black's side is still invadable, and we've got sente. We can play something like 'a' or 'b'. So...

I approve.
indeed it is invadeable, we get sente in this variation and black's formation is full of holes and bad aji, I'd be happy with this. I think 6 is bad though, I think black should slide to "a", if white fixes on the left, he get's pincered pretty severly on the bottom.



I also approve.
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Last edited by shapenaji; 2010-04-06 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 2010-04-07, 12:00 AM   #109
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Default Move #14A



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Prisoners
Black: 2
White: 2

May as well play where I said I would in my analysis. I intend to speculate about future moves and such in the morning, unless the game has changed/progressed by then.

Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is at least semi-sente, because of the followup at a
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Last edited by Terr; 2010-04-08 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Adding move #
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Old 2010-04-07, 12:52 AM   #110
Joaz Banbeck
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Once again, my teammate is playing like a pro. I approve.
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