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Old 2010-04-07, 02:38 PM   #121
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel_the_smith View Post
What does a team do if their high dan "goes rogue"?
Thorazine is recommended. But if younger brothers can't get to big brother in person, they start filling in their own eyes. It calms down a high dan real quickly.


FWIW, if Violence wants to go rogue, I approve. He has to ante up 4 stones just to do anything. It is like giving a 10.5 komi.

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Old 2010-04-07, 03:41 PM   #122
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Comments and analysis, as promised:

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Like I said, this shape leaves a weakness at 'a' for black. I don't think that black can afford to tenuki. If they do, I will at least strongly consider taking 'a' right away. Black has several local choices that will defend 'a', so the specific local point isn't sure. However, as long as they are forced to defend, because that will let me play somewhere I want, instead of just responding.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . b . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . x . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

The question is where to take this initiative. The most obvious thought I have is to extend from this corner to make a base around 'b'. That obviously gives up sente, so I'd like to look around a bit farther first.

Something like 'c' is tempting. It threatens the other corner, so there is a higher chance that black would have to respond. If so, I might get to play something like 'x' loosely in the top that would give me something to work with from both corners. Note that it wouldn't be a base, but it would help me fight off attacks a bit better than we could without it.

Something in the vicinity of 'd' is tempting, but if black plays something local to that corner, I doubt I'll be able to threaten their group much, so this will probably be too close to their strength. And anything further away in the west is too low of priority. I'm going to treat that lone stone as either reduction or a candidate for sacrifice for now, unless the temperature of the board gets low enough that trying to live is not a waste.

After all this, I'm not yet decided between somewhere around b or somewhere around c, but I have time, and the move black plays may change things.
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Old 2010-04-07, 09:40 PM   #123
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Alright... after thinking about it for a while, I really want to go through with this. After not taking any territory in the other corner, I really feel like it's necessary to start and mess up the situation around here. It's time for a fight!

Roll for initiative!



Let's do this.

I'll pay 4 black mana, er, I mean stones, for this move.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . B . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Edit: B:2, W:6

Last edited by Violence; 2010-04-07 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 2010-04-07, 09:52 PM   #124
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Awesome, let's see those prisoner counts climb (speaking of which, you guys should post them below the board to keep track of them).
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:01 PM   #125
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Hey, it's one of those nonsense moves that go against basic proverbs. My prediction about B17 was more correct than I could anticipate.
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Old 2010-04-07, 11:56 PM   #126
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So, herein lies the problem with the point system as devised... (I think we may need a fix before progressing)

Violence has just made a move, but now it opens up the possibility for me to make a move.

However, If Joaz makes a move first, ANY move, including a play at 1-1, I get to come back over top, with a dan-level response, for a net gain of 1 point.

There's also another strange side effect here, Violence and I could end up playing most of the rest of this game, alternating 4 point moves, with our middle players essentially only making moves to keep the price of our moves down. The net difference will only be 3-5 points.

I think there may need to be an additional catch in play to prevent the middle player from wasting a move to decrease the value of the dan player's response.

I also think there should be a catch to prevent the upper level players from suddenly hijacking the game during a complicated sequence, and never giving control back.
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Old 2010-04-08, 02:04 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shapenaji View Post
So, herein lies the problem with the point system as devised... (I think we may need a fix before progressing)

Violence has just made a move, but now it opens up the possibility for me to make a move.

However, If Joaz makes a move first, ANY move, including a play at 1-1, I get to come back over top, with a dan-level response, for a net gain of 1 point.

There's also another strange side effect here, Violence and I could end up playing most of the rest of this game, alternating 4 point moves, with our middle players essentially only making moves to keep the price of our moves down. The net difference will only be 3-5 points.

I think there may need to be an additional catch in play to prevent the middle player from wasting a move to decrease the value of the dan player's response.

I also think there should be a catch to prevent the upper level players from suddenly hijacking the game during a complicated sequence, and never giving control back.
Yeah, that's why I suggested the quota proposal, that gets replenished from non-usage. However, if only one player corrects, 4 points per move is a lot!
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Old 2010-04-08, 02:30 AM   #128
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shapenaji View Post
So, herein lies the problem with the point system as devised... (I think we may need a fix before progressing)

Violence has just made a move, but now it opens up the possibility for me to make a move.

However, If Joaz makes a move first, ANY move, including a play at 1-1, I get to come back over top, with a dan-level response, for a net gain of 1 point.

There's also another strange side effect here, Violence and I could end up playing most of the rest of this game, alternating 4 point moves, with our middle players essentially only making moves to keep the price of our moves down. The net difference will only be 3-5 points.

I think there may need to be an additional catch in play to prevent the middle player from wasting a move to decrease the value of the dan player's response.

I also think there should be a catch to prevent the upper level players from suddenly hijacking the game during a complicated sequence, and never giving control back.
There is a mechanism to prevent the top players from hijacking the game. Let us presume that you want your team to win. Let us further presume that Violence goes rogue, playing the game as he sees fit. All you have to do to refute Violence's strategy is let me ( the middle player ) play him.
Even if Topazg cooperates and always makes a play to lower Violence's cost to 3 points per move, I am losing at most 2 points per move. We gain a net of one point per move. That means it is effectively me vs Violence with a HUGE komi. I'll win that game. ( Especially since if I make a really bad blunder, you'll be there to bail me out reducing the komi to HUGE-1 ) For me, beating a 5D is easy like that - I might even be able to beat a pro if I get one prisoner per move.
In summary, if one top player is a team player, and one is not, the team player will win.

There is also the possibility that the middle player will get pissed, and stop helping his big brother with the dummy moves. Then the komi is HUGE*2.
( It is a natural thing for middle brother to do, if he knows that everything that he does is going to be obliterated )

There is some complicated game theory here, and I think that the optimal solution is a compromise between the two extremes. The top players will semi-hijack the game. The top player who really wants his team to win will help the team by accepting as many of his teammate's moves as possible.
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Old 2010-04-08, 02:42 AM   #129
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Violence has already given up 4 points. But Terr has seen the best reply, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Like I said, this shape leaves a weakness at 'a' for black.
Assuming that Terr does go ahead with this, Violence has spent 4 points for nothing. This is what keeps a top player from going rogue.
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Old 2010-04-08, 02:45 AM   #130
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Joaz:

Well, you're right about us getting into a constant fight (though for the second player to reach in and hurt their own side seems unreasonable, I'm not saying that the second player can't stop it, just that it wouldn't be in the team's best interests), I can step out and let you play Violence. However, the minute I step out, he steps out, leaving only the small net gain of him over you.

You're right then, that it can be stopped. However, consider HOW it would stop.

In order for us to gain by stopping the strong players alternating, I would need to wait until he makes a forcing move to step out (something with an obvious response, which is funny, since it basically removes most of the incentive to play forcing moves, which are a major part of a strong player's game). But it's not in my interest to ignore anything difficult.

So basically, you're going to create a very weird kind of game, where the strong players can't use setup moves.

EDIT: Also, I'm still not entirely clear on the logic for the override of the middle player being 1 additional point. I'm not really sure what your trying to create an incentive for. Why not just make it an additional 2 points, unless the high brother returns the move to the low brother's, in which case, it costs nothing extra.
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