Go Discussions  

Go Back   Go Discussions > GoDiscussions.com > Beginners

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2010-03-31, 08:36 PM   #41
Bill Spight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,705
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazam View Post
Hidden Section:
I think we were mostly joking, although someone brought up skepticism about black's Komoku position. Actually 4-5 is considered a bit bad nowadays
Hidden Section:


Hmmm. Well, the 4-6 it is, then!



You can remove these ads if you create an account.

__________________
5% in '11!
Bill Spight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-03-31, 08:49 PM   #42
Alakazam
Senior Member
 
Alakazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Spight View Post
Hidden Section:


Hmmm. Well, the 4-6 it is, then!



Hidden Section:
Aha, I didn't see your post until after mine. My comment about 4-5 was a reply to Magicwand's comment of "any move in the corner is fine"
__________________
ベン マントル
Active Go teacher, PM me
Ask me for info about Go in Toronto!Canadian 5dWBaduk 7d
Online-go: zeldabaduk 6.2d (p)Baduk.Pro: zeldahttp://ramenboya.livejournal.comhttp://senseis.xmp.net/?BenMantle
Alakazam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-03-31, 09:42 PM   #43
Joaz Banbeck
Super Moderator
 
Joaz Banbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Banbeck Vale
Posts: 1,512
Default Move #4B

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post


Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

W: 0
B: 0
Back when I was studing the double komoku, I saw pros play this against it. So as long as my teammate is playing like a pro, I'm not going to interrupt. Shapenaji, it is yours.
__________________
Register for go congress here:

https://www.usgo.org/congresses/2010/register.php
Joaz Banbeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 02:44 AM   #44
Gresil
Senior Member
 
Gresil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 495
Default

Trigger: if Shapenaji approves W4,
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Hide Diagram Code
W: 0
B: 0


The above contains no comments, just the board after B5.
__________________
...unnecessary talents, / surplus curiosity, / short-range sorrows and fears, / eagerness to see things from all six sides... -Wisława Szymborska

DGS KGS
Gresil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 03:11 PM   #45
shapenaji
Senior Member
 
shapenaji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 952
Default

I accept it, (sorry for the delay, I saw the move, but it was topazg's turn, next time I'll set a trigger)
__________________
This signature is not self-referential
shapenaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 03:33 PM   #46
Wasiqi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 106
Default

What an interesting concept for a game...I've not been paying attention and am new to the whole malkovich idea.

Seems awesome.
Wasiqi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 04:17 PM   #47
topazg
Senior Member
 
topazg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chatteris, UK
Posts: 918
Default

Approved.

Hidden Section:
Actually, I would definitely play the high approach with Black's stone in the top left, but a) I'm not convinced it's better, and b) I don't want to throw away 2 points on an unsubstantiated hunch - let alone doing it for the first time in the game!
__________________
KGS (topazg) 1d | EGF 1k | Creator and ex-maintainer of OGS
Active Go teacher for anyone up to 6 kyu
topazg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 04:35 PM   #48
Violence
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 720
Default

Approved.
Violence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 04:52 PM   #49
Joaz Banbeck
Super Moderator
 
Joaz Banbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Banbeck Vale
Posts: 1,512
Default

Just to keep everything ccordinated, this is the current position.
Shapenaji and I both liked Terr's move #4, all three black teammates agree on number 5 below, so Terr, it is your turn to play move #6.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
__________________
Register for go congress here:

https://www.usgo.org/congresses/2010/register.php

Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-01 at 05:21 PM.
Joaz Banbeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 05:50 PM   #50
Terr
Senior Member
 
Terr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dallas
Posts: 264
Default

Okay, I can't finish writing up everything I intend to before I get off work. As it's club night, I probably won't be able to post the move until the morning, but we'll see. I'm braindead from a rough day at work, so if none of this makes sense in the morning, I'll overhaul it. Here's the start of my planning, I'll finish it later.

Safe to read:
Hidden Section:


I'd love to get sente to throw a stone at K17, but I have NO clue which pincer joseki end with sente to take it, so I'll worry about that as the fight unfolds.


Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Now, as I said previously, we're going to select a pincer, because if I passively take the bottom, he'll have a good shape facing his northwest corner, which I don't want. He would have two and a half corners, with power over the ground between, and I'd have one and a half. After the pincer, odds are good that he will have a weak group, and I will stabilize at least one of mine. Now that we know we want a pincer, let's look at which one. I'm most familiar with a, b, and c. While I've mostly only done pincers from the 4-4, we'll have a look here and do the best we can.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

A) Low, close pincer is fairly standard. Puts a lot of pressure on white's most recent stone, starting the fight that we're looking at. The downside is, the harder I push, the harder Gresil can push back. The upswing of this over the high pincer is that black can more easily grab things underneath. The downside of going farther away is that there is less urgency for him to get out, as well as less pressure once he tries to. As with 4-4, there are generally three big options: Get out, nab the corner, or tenuki. If black tenukis, we can at worst continue this fight later, so let's back-burner that until it happens. If black nabs for corner...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Okay, wishful thinking. Other options:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 5 6 . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Bleh, mind is burned out from work today. If black resists with something like 2 in the fist diagram, things can get complicated. I'm sure this variation is not optimal for either side, but it's just a demonstration of how quickly things can get complicated. Would help if I knew joseki for this sort of thing, so I knew what to expect/hope for. I'll look at this again in the morning when I'm fresh. In the meantime, let's look at if black tries to escape to the center. I think that this is honestly more likely, since the 3-4 leaves less corner for him to grab than the 4-4 would have.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 2 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If black runs at 1 (a is also possible), this is one possibility. I'd like it if we got this much of the west, and the south group should be able to treat spreading east or settling in the corner as miai. Let's get around to looking at option b. My one relief is that I have my big brothers around to correct me when I go astray. It's been stated that Shapenaji's fighting-type, and that's super-effective against gresil and my normal-grade thoughts.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
I doubt I'd get this. Black gets something facing its other corner, all right, but we get a huge wall facing the start of a nice moyo.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If this worked, we would get 8, which makes gives us a shot at a or somewhere around b. The white group on the bottom would be weak, but could stabilize by sacrificing a stone or two if need be.
__________________
Chew on KGS. Currently around 7k
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=chew

"...I wish the West Texas highway was a moebius strip. I could ride it out forever when I feel my heart break..." -The Mountain Goats

Last edited by Terr; 2010-04-08 at 05:39 PM. Reason: unhiding
Terr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Malkovich registration thread Joaz Banbeck General Go Chat 183 2010-04-16 04:40 PM
Survey on the Malkovich games. sol.ch Beginners 53 2010-03-30 04:51 AM
Malkovich Viewing Area shapenaji General Go Chat 0 2010-03-22 01:31 AM
My first finished game at OGS - a Malkovich approach karaklis Game Analysis 5 2009-09-08 01:17 PM
brother vs brother (11k) rebent Game Analysis 3 2009-03-03 08:51 AM

You can remove these ads if you create an account.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.