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Old 2010-04-11, 12:39 PM   #171
Gresil
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I've put 'safe to read' notes in front of some more early comments of mine. Not much to look at, though.

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Old 2010-04-11, 07:20 PM   #172
shapenaji
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Hey guys, still deciding if I'm going to approve this one...
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Old 2010-04-11, 07:53 PM   #173
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Alright, I don't approve this move,

I'm changing it to this:


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
B: 2+2+1 = 5
W:6

Hidden Section:

Joaz's commentary about why Terr's move kills our aji is spot on, so I won't repeat that, and simply defer to his post.

However, while Joaz's correction is a good move, I don't feel it's fast enough for the situation we've become embroiled in, it's good IF black responds, if black tenukis, I'm less sure of it. So, my primary reason is that it's slow. Both "a" and "b" are very big follow-ups for black, and white ends up with an okay sized corner... entirely enclosed


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 5 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

imo, much better for black... (I feel Takemiya would agree with me)

Now, the move I suggested turns the heat on a bit, this becomes a complicated fight, but white has nothing to worry about here:

if black plays this way, white gets a solid corner position, and threatens "a" at some future point (it works right now, but it's too small)

move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X 4 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

on the other hand, suppose black tries this:


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 5 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

"a" becomes a gote life in the corner, so white should have no worries about escaping his marked 4 on top, (black always has to come back and spend a move there, so when he does, then I run out, he can't close me in, we have miai) It also looks as though we should be able to connect up with the marked stone on the side, which could bring his lower left stones into the fight.

The more weak groups we can get him to have in this fight, the better.

lets consider another variation:


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X 7 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

continued:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is worse, since not only are black's stones floating, they have terrible shape. Toss in the fact that black isn't actually alive yet in the corner:


Black tenukis corner
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Black tenukis corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 6 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
This way is bent 4 in the corner, so, in this case, ko


Also ko
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Also ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

On the whole, this leaves me feeling that this is a favorable fight for us, he'll either try to surround us, and end up with a ko, or, he'll protect the corner and we'll get a favorable running fight in the center.

Note: this is another possibility, albeit really bad shape for black, at least imo.

Black tenukis corner
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Black tenukis corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X . O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 1 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 5 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
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Last edited by shapenaji; 2010-04-11 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 2010-04-11, 08:26 PM   #174
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shapenaji View Post
...I'm changing it to this:
Dang...I looked at that one, and somehow lost it. I had even decided a week ago that if Terr played it, I was going to approve it.
@teammates: Sorry to cost us the point.
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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-11 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 2010-04-11, 08:46 PM   #175
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Hidden Section:
I must be as good as shapenaji cause I picked the same move.
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Old 2010-04-11, 11:18 PM   #176
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This should teach me to not prepare an analysis before all players on the opponent's side have played. Black 17, ETA 12 hours.
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Old 2010-04-12, 12:55 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
Hidden Section:
I must be as good as shapenaji cause I picked the same move.
Me too! 6D here I come!
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Old 2010-04-12, 09:19 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaz Banbeck View Post
Dang...I looked at that one, and somehow lost it. I had even decided a week ago that if Terr played it, I was going to approve it.
@teammates: Sorry to cost us the point.
No worries. Makes me feel a little chagrinned. On the last move, I had announced I would play something there if black tenuki'ed. Guess I should have stuck to my guns =D
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Old 2010-04-12, 11:12 AM   #179
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Ugh... I'm too tired to make a move now. Or rather, I'm too tired to see what's on the board. Or rather rather, I'm too tired to grok what I'm seeing.

Hidden Section:

B1 is probably obvious, but I think I will have to sleep on it.

An exchange brewing by the old smoke tree
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc An exchange brewing by the old smoke tree
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This doesn't look wise for white.



There is a heppy lend, fur fur away
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc There is a heppy lend, fur fur away
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X 2 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

(Edit: this line is nonsense.)
White takes a big corner and there's nothing I can do about it. I assume the stronger folks on my side saw this coming and find this result acceptable.

I am not worried about the ACME Violence Stone(tm) on the top. It'll fend for itself even if I take gote with B5 above and let white pincer.


A kwaint kontinuation
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc A kwaint kontinuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . X . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

B2 will be A, B or C.

__________________
...unnecessary talents, / surplus curiosity, / short-range sorrows and fears, / eagerness to see things from all six sides... -Wisława Szymborska

DGS KGS

Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-12 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 2010-04-12, 01:00 PM   #180
Gresil
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Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
B:5
W:6

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DGS KGS
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