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Old 2010-03-30, 12:22 AM   #1
Joaz Banbeck
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Default Big Brother Malkovich #1

It is barely a year ago that I first introduced the Malkovich idea upon an unsuspecting public. As it seems to have grown beyond any chance of eradication, I'm turning my efforts to something bigger: Big Brother Malkovich, played, in this instance, with 6 people.

Big Brother Go is team go, with players of varying ranks, usually differing by about 5 stones. ( In this instance, each team has one player about 6K AGA, one about 1D, and one about 5D. ) Each move involves a play by each of the team members in succession. A stronger player may correct a weaker teammate's move, but he must give up prisoners to the other team for doing so. It is this transfer of stones that give big brother go its character.
To make a move, the lowest ranked player on a side plays a stone. The next strongest player - his 'big brother' - looks at it, and either says that it is ok, or moves the stone to a better location. If he chooses to move the stone, he must give the other team a prisoner or two for having done so. The next strongest player on the team then has the opportunity to correct him - and also has to give up a prisoner or two if he does. When the strongest player on the side has finally made his decision, the team is done, and then the other team starts their move.
If you consider the number of prisoners that could accumulate, you can see that big brother has to let the majority of younger brother's moves stay as played. The lowest ranked players get to play the game mostly the way they would normally, but the really bad mistakes get corrected.
The number of stones paid to the other team varies, and is roughly proportional to the difference in strength. In this instance we will be using 2 stones if the middle player changes the move of the lowest ranked player, 1 stone if the top player corrects him, and 4 stones if the middle player passes but the top player corrects the lowest player's move.
As any pro can tell you, amateurs are terrible at counting. We do well just to recognize that one move is better than another. But few of us can say how much better. Here, that will be one of the major issues. Sure, one move may be better than another, but how much better?

I have lured five other GDers into this experiment. The black team, in order of play, will be Gresil, Topazg, and Violence. The white team, also in order of play, will be Terr, myself, and Shapenaji.
Gresil will play a stone first for the black tem. Topazg will then have the opportunity to move that stone. He has to give us two stones if he does. Next, Violence will have the opportunity to correct Topazg's move. When Violence is done. Terr begins the move for the white side, and we proceed in a similar manner.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

To our honorable opponents: GG, GL, and it is your move.

To observers: Once we get going, questions and comments are welcome. The only thing that we ask is no spoilers. Please try to make comments/questions only about past moves, not about future moves. When we play move A, if you want to tells us that A is bad shape, that's no problem. If you want to tell us that A is a bad move because B over on the other side of the board is bigger, that is a problem; it inadvertently tells us that we should be playing B. Please hold that type of comment until the area around B has been played.
We want to make our own mistakes here. Thanks. -JB
Of course, you can say anything about any phase of the game inside 'hide' tags.

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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-14 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 2010-03-30, 12:30 AM   #2
Gresil
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Default 1



Show Diagram Code[go]$$c
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$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Have a nice game, everyone. Do we make the regular Malkovich comments?
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Old 2010-03-30, 01:04 AM   #3
Joaz Banbeck
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresil View Post
Have a nice game, everyone. Do we make the regular Malkovich comments?
Yes. Although on the first move it is rather difficult.

Topazg, it is your move next ( I suspect that you'll find no problem with Gresil's move )

I'm going to try another new wrinkle here. I'm going to color code my comments
For those of you who are beginners, I'm going to have text in green.

A good simple introduction to the first couple of opening moves was written by Vap in his game against me:

Hidden Section:

No doubt most players are familiar with the theory underlying why most opening moves start in the corner:



Show Diagram Code[go]
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | x x x x . . . . . . x x . . . . . . . |
$$ | x x x x . . . . . . x x . . . . . . . |
$$ | x x x x X . . . . X . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

As we can see from the above diagram the two stones in the corner secure 12 points of territory, the two on the side secure 4 while the two in the middle secure no territory at all. This means it is more efficient to make territory in the corner and along the sides than in the middle. Does this mean that other moves, such as tengen, are suboptimal? No but they are much harder to use effectively and do not, insofar as I can tell, convey any special advantages to offset the difficulty involved in playing them.

As such the most popular opening moves are:


The 3-3 (san-san)
Show Diagram Code[go]$$ The 3-3 (san-san)
$$ -------------
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$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . .
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$$ | . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



The 3-4 (komoku)
Show Diagram Code[go]$$ The 3-4 (komoku)
$$ -------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
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$$ | . . X , . .
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$$ | . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
...


The 4-4 (hoshi)
Show Diagram Code[go]$$ The 4-4 (hoshi)
$$ -------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
... The 3-3, while securing the corner, is small and does not have good development potential.
The 3-4 requires a second move to create a shimari http://senseis.xmp.net/?Shimari to secure the corner and this is too slow for my taste.
The 4-4 is fast and has good development potential. It's obvious weakness is that it does not secure the corner but I'm comfortable using influence so this doesn't bother me. ...

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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-12 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 2010-03-30, 01:18 AM   #4
Alakazam
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So far, Black is winning.
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Old 2010-03-30, 01:48 AM   #5
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakazam View Post
So far, Black is winning.
Nope, the white team is winning by 6.5 points. Did I mention that we have komi?

What is komi? Look here:
Hidden Section:

Having the first move in a game of go is an advantage, sort of like having the first move in chess or tic-tac-toe. To compensate for this, white - the player who moves second - is given several extra stones. Hundreds of years ago, it was 4.5 stones ( and no, they don't physically split a stone, the komi is added to the player's score at the end of the game. ) It went to 5.5 last century, and 6.5 recently. Some organizations now prefer 7 or 7.5 points.
For the sake of simplicity, some players use a whole number komi, and black hands white several stones before the game starts.



Oh, and I also forgot to mention that we are using Japanese rules.

There are different sets of rules:
Hidden Section:

Yes, as weird as it may seem, we play a game that still has some uncertainty about the rules. As a beginner, you won't have to worry about this. There are a few rare situations that arise that require special rules. Some people prefer one version of the special rules, some another. There are Japanese rules, Chinese rules, Ing rules, and New Zealnd rules, just to name some of the more popular.
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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-03-30 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 2010-03-30, 02:05 AM   #6
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Default Move #1C

Hmmm...

Trigger:

Hidden Section:
If Topazg oks this move, I do too.

Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-03-30 at 09:26 AM. Reason: move number
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Old 2010-03-30, 02:31 AM   #7
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Even with 6.5 Komi, Black is considered to have a tiny advantage I think. As for me, I have much better results playing as white ><
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Old 2010-03-30, 03:36 AM   #8
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Default Move #1B

I'm happy (enough ) with this, approved!

Can we make sure the move number and the prisoners for each side is listed on each move. With BB rules keeping track of the prisoners will be much harder!

Hidden Section:
This is the "correct" place to play an initial 3-4 stone, although these days I tend to take the corner hoshi. My response to this move would be instantly in the top left hoshi. For me, this makes a lot of sense as I strongly dislike playing against the Chinese opening, and it makes the high approach to the top right at "a" a sensible direction of play.


My next move would be ..
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc My next move would be ..
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

-----

I look forward to seeing how this game develops
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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-03-30 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:17 AM   #9
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Default Rules question

What happens if the middle and top players disagree? What happens if the top player and lowest player had the same move, is the middle player overruled? What happens if all 3 players disagree? Do they pay 6 stones?

If the middle / top player's move is a tough sequence requiring precise follow up, do they have to pay for ever move in the sequence that the lowest player cannot find?
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Old 2010-03-30, 04:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
What happens if the middle and top players disagree? What happens if the top player and lowest player had the same move, is the middle player overruled? What happens if all 3 players disagree? Do they pay 6 stones?

If the middle / top player's move is a tough sequence requiring precise follow up, do they have to pay for ever move in the sequence that the lowest player cannot find?
The middle player always assesses first. So if the middle player changes that costs 2 prisoners, and the top player disagreeing again costs a further prisoner. If the top player and the lowest player had the same move it's a double disagreement = 3 prisoners. If all three players disagree it's 3 prisoners again, as it's the same as the top player agreeing with the lowest.

Your second paragraph is part of the fun of the rules. It's like "never play kikashi in rengo" - don't play the most sharp and complicated lines if your partner is going to have no idea what to do with it. If you correct the first move it'll cost 2 points, if the fight is very high level and mixes a middle correction with middle + top correction (say average 50% of each), the corrections in the fight are costing 2.5 points every move.

Fun stuff, keeps the upper tiers planning strategically! Where I would correct but have chosen not to for complications I will explain my reasoning behind the correction and the reason not to, I promise
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