Go Discussions  

Go Back   Go Discussions > GoDiscussions.com > Beginners

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2010-04-08, 02:56 PM   #161
Aphelion
Senior Member
 
Aphelion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Sure. I tried to deal with the implied suggestions of Joaz's corrections in my analyses, but will try to do so more in the future. Similarly I will try to speculate more on opponent changes as well. Otherwise, if you have any specific questions or remarks, feel free to ask and I can explain my reactions and thoughts further.
First question is to Gresil: What was your reaction to Violence's change?

Pictorial guide requested.

You can remove these ads if you create an account.

__________________
KGS 6k

Last edited by Aphelion; 2010-04-08 at 03:02 PM.
Aphelion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-08, 06:08 PM   #162
Terr
Senior Member
 
Terr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dallas
Posts: 264
Default

Just as a heads up to the other team: I marked my messages that no longer need to be hidden. I kept the hide tags, so that my posts don't all become huge. But if you're curious to read through old hidden comments, I've marked the ones that are safe.

As an aside, reading through my old hidden comments, once the game is over I REALLY need to learn more joseki. I've been doing my best figuring out the ones I'm playing as I'm playing them (Or avoiding as much punishment as possible) but I would feel bad if Joaz had to spend points to correct a simple joseki mistake.

My explanations will really only be helpful to those weaker than I am (for obvious reasons), but it's still fun to know what other people think when they play. And if anyone has any questions or comments, they're more than welcome. Anything that I'm not allowed to read, just hide until I can. And if beginners or those weaker than 7-8k have questions about my explanations, fire away.
__________________
Chew on KGS. Currently around 7k
http://www.gokgs.com/graphPage.jsp?user=chew

"...I wish the West Texas highway was a moebius strip. I could ride it out forever when I feel my heart break..." -The Mountain Goats
Terr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-08, 10:38 PM   #163
Gresil
Senior Member
 
Gresil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 495
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
First question is to Gresil: What was your reaction to Violence's change?
Enthusiasm: I'll be able to hear why he played it.
__________________
...unnecessary talents, / surplus curiosity, / short-range sorrows and fears, / eagerness to see things from all six sides... -Wisława Szymborska

DGS KGS
Gresil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-10, 12:35 PM   #164
Violence
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 720
Default

Just checking, we're waiting on Joaz?
Violence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-10, 12:55 PM   #165
Joaz Banbeck
Super Moderator
 
Joaz Banbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Banbeck Vale
Posts: 1,512
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violence View Post
Just checking, we're waiting on Joaz?
Yep, I'm working on it. It should get posted tonight.

Hidden Section:

I think that I detect the anxiety of someone who has played hamate and is worried that the opponent may find a refutation
__________________
Register for go congress here:

https://www.usgo.org/congresses/2010/register.php
Joaz Banbeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-10, 05:32 PM   #166
Joaz Banbeck
Super Moderator
 
Joaz Banbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Banbeck Vale
Posts: 1,512
Default Thoughts on move 16

Hidden Section:

The move currently proposed by younger brother is this:


-- White 16 --
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc -- White 16 --
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

My initial comment - that we did not approve - was based on the following:

When white plays 1, it virtually forces black 2:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Now if white plays 3 anyplace else, black plays 4 like this, and white is unhappy:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

So black has to play 3 like this:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X b O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

...and black responds with the obvious 4. Then black has threats of 'a', which severely limits white's eye space, and 'b' followed by 'c' which chops white apart.

That's why I don't like younger brother's move. ( FWIW, let us not dismiss the insight that lies behind the move. White does want not want to get locked in the corner. )

================================================== =======================================

To understand what is really going on, let's get back to the basics on this joseki - or at least what I remember. I think that I got this from Ishida.

The traditional pattern is like this, it is live and let live, both players sliding along the sides ( 2 can be at 'a' ) into unoccupied areas. There is a big yose point at 'b', but it is not big enough immediately, for both players have the beginnings of eye space on their respective sides.
White's short term goal is to expand to 'c', black's to 'd' or similar.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . a 2 . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Black can be a little riskier playing 1 as below:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . 2 . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

But then 'a' and 'b' are miai for white, and either way white gates a bigger side than black. The immediate play of the seeming yose move at 2-2 only works if the extension at 'b' is unreasonable for white, like this:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . 2 . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Now 1 is more than just yose because it starts interfering with white's eye space. Black can expand along his side, but white cannot.

That's what I remember. If it is wrong, blame my faulty memory, not Ishida.

================================================== ===============================

Once we have reviewed the basics, the nature of black's most recent move is clear: not only does he obviously want to prevent white's natural extension down the side, but he wants to play the 2-2 point soon. It is just the joseki discussed above with move order changed. Instead of playing the joseki straight through with 2-2 point after there is black presence along the upper side, he is pausing in the joseki to put a stone out along the top. Then he'll come back and take the 2-2 point.
And, again, as I inferred from Terr's move, there is a possibility that black is going to try to lock us in with E15.

This leads to four possible theoretical directions to contest black's plans.
1) We can play the 2-2 ourselves ('a'), being safe but taking the chance that black's side will become bigger than white's and/or that black will lock white into the corner.
2) We can play on black's intended side with something like 'b'. If black interferes with ours, we interfere with his, for no net profit to black. We can live by moving out into the center or taking the 2-2 point.
3) We can move out into the center, ensuring that our group is safe even if black does get the 2-2 point.
4) We can directly contest black's meddling on our side with something like 'd'.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . d . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
__________________
Register for go congress here:

https://www.usgo.org/congresses/2010/register.php

Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-10 at 05:36 PM.
Joaz Banbeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-10, 06:52 PM   #167
Bill Spight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,705
Default

Hidden Section:


For reference:


Download this SGF file.


Edit: Completed game record.
__________________
5% in '11!

Last edited by Bill Spight; 2010-04-10 at 08:29 PM.
Bill Spight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-10, 07:41 PM   #168
fwiffo
Senior Member
 
fwiffo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,104
Default

Hidden Section:
If I can try to do a little 4 kyu tewari...



Show Diagram Code[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , 1 . . 2 . ,
$$ | . a b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


If I can trust joseki dictionaries, and perhaps I cannot, white 3 is considered bad here. But they put black 6 at a. Obviously black has to have a pretty darn good reason for playing such a low stone. So, white's next move maybe should be looking at exploiting the lack of a stone there. I'm tempted to play a or b myself as white.
__________________
4k KGS - game archive
Webmaster - Fort Myers Go Club
fwiffo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-11, 02:27 AM   #169
Joaz Banbeck
Super Moderator
 
Joaz Banbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Banbeck Vale
Posts: 1,512
Default Move #16B


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

B: 2+2 =4
W:6
Hidden Section:

================================================== ===============================

We have four concerns:
1) We may need the 2-2 point for eyes, and black is threatening to take it.
2) Black is cramping our extension along the top side.
3) Black may be threatening to lock us in.
4) Black is trying to make profit along the left side.

This leads to four possible theoretical directions to contest black's plans. ( they do not map 1:1 )
1) We can play the 2-2 ourselves ('a'), being safe but taking the chance that black's side will become bigger than white's and/or that black will lock white into the corner.
2) We can play on black's intended side with something like 'b'. If black interferes with ours, we interfere with his, for no net profit to black. We can live by moving out into the center or taking the 2-2 point.
3) We can move out into the center, ensuring that our group is safe even if black does get the 2-2 point.
4) We can directly contest black's meddling on our side with something like 'd'.


Diagram 1
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . d . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Let's look at them one by one.

Option 'a': This deals directly with the issue of who gets the 2-2 point, it indirectly answers black's last eye-restricting move by preserving eyespace in the corner. It indirectly addresses getting locked in by assuring us of eyes. It does not do much to prevent black profit on the left. It seems to be sente to a modest degree, threatening the small capture of B17.
It is tricky for black to play at 'x' or nearby because he is too thin, and moves like a clamp at C15 would hurt.
Black can play at 'y', but we can push and cut, and all ladders favor us. Once we have cut, move like 'z' will hurt black.


Diagram 1
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . z . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Option 'b':

This is easily answered by black: he plays 2 to transpose back into the mainline of the joseki, and is threatening both 'x' and something around 'y'.


Diagram 2
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . y , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . y y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


Option 'c': We can try the evasive running like this:


Diagram 3
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

But it is gote. Black has a free hand to do as he pleases. Move 2 makes life too easy for black.

Or we can try the more agressive pushing out. Black of course replies with 2:


Diagram 4a
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 4a
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

The simple 3 lets black make the strong hane. We are being attacked and he will make profit on the left.

A more complicated move 3 is this


Diagram 4b
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 4b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . 3 X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

And black is becoming too strong on the left.

Option 'd': After 2 below, black has 'x' and 'y' and 'z'. We can't stop all of them. We still have to play 'x' ourselves, and the exchange of 1 for 2 benefits black more than white.


Diagram 5
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc Diagram 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . 2 . . 1 . . y . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


When all four lines are examined, only the 2-2 point looks good. And in many of the other possible variations, white has to come back and play it anyway. It is safe, it is sente, and it preserves the underlying theme of the joseki.
__________________
Register for go congress here:

https://www.usgo.org/congresses/2010/register.php

Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-11 at 09:29 AM.
Joaz Banbeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-11, 02:44 AM   #170
topazg
Senior Member
 
topazg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chatteris, UK
Posts: 918
Default

Hidden Section:
Hmmm, I'm interested that the response wasn't here:


move 16B
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc move 16B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
__________________
KGS (topazg) 1d | EGF 1k | Creator and ex-maintainer of OGS
Active Go teacher for anyone up to 6 kyu
topazg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Malkovich registration thread Joaz Banbeck General Go Chat 183 2010-04-16 04:40 PM
Survey on the Malkovich games. sol.ch Beginners 53 2010-03-30 04:51 AM
Malkovich Viewing Area shapenaji General Go Chat 0 2010-03-22 01:31 AM
My first finished game at OGS - a Malkovich approach karaklis Game Analysis 5 2009-09-08 01:17 PM
brother vs brother (11k) rebent Game Analysis 3 2009-03-03 08:51 AM

You can remove these ads if you create an account.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.