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Old 2010-04-08, 11:28 AM   #151
Violence
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To the observers:

Hidden Section:

So this is the free hamete that I asked for from breakfast during his website advertisement. I not only looked at the patterns he presented, but in order to give a thorough review, I asked several other sources, including a professional, checked other sites, and did some in depth exploration of variations.

I feel quite confident that this joseki is so complex that whatever Terr's analysis is, it doesn't scratch the surface. Whatever Joaz is thinking about, he probably can see some of the key points in the position, but reading out the entire fight and how it will affect the lone stone is probably out of his range currently.

Shapenaji... well, he's stronger than I am, and I only know of his playing style, which heavily favors reading and not knowledge. I think the players on the opposite side will at least be challenged heavily by the upcoming fight, whereas my knowledge of this pattern will give me some advantage. Hopefully.

Luckily, it looks like my move change is already going to result in a switch up right now.

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Old 2010-04-08, 11:44 AM   #152
Aphelion
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To Violence:

Thanks for making the change . The game is so much more interesting now.
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Old 2010-04-08, 11:45 AM   #153
Terr
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Oh, and seeing Violence's name reminds me:
(for observers + my team)

Safe to read:
Hidden Section:

I had intended to spend time forecasting what the black player would do next, and to speculate why Violence decided that this move was four points bigger than Gresil's.

I mostly covered the first part, by showing that my move was quite sente. I expect the next move to be local, and most likely what I showed in that 'b' diagram.

As far as WHY Violence did it...

First, it's the biggest open side, so it may be worth sacrificing some of the corner to get the first foothold on it.

Second, I was once told (By yoyoma, in a generous game review) that when you get in a fight, bring a friend. If we might get in a fight from that corner, he'll want to already have something on the other side. That way, if they get to chase our group, they will be building territory on that side (Plus they can chase us farther.

Third, once we finished that corner, we were going to extend that direction, almost no matter what. Jumping the gun and skipping ahead to do that gives us more in the corner but prevents us from getting too much in the direction we had wanted it originally.

So while it was a surprising move, because it leaves a joseki-ish thing unfinished and thereby left a decent weakness in the corner, there are several reasons it is a good move, so I (kind of) get why it was done. Not that I'd have the nerve to play something like that myself, nor would I know how to follow it up well.

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Last edited by Terr; 2010-04-08 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Unhiding
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Old 2010-04-08, 12:18 PM   #154
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If Terr's backers approve, my move is
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Prisoners: B:2, W:6



No comments--I don't think there are any other options.

To Aphelion:
Hidden Section:

I will be trying to make the game boring to you again.
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Old 2010-04-08, 12:23 PM   #155
Violence
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Hidden Section:

Also, another reason I made this move was because the game was really playing out to be something that I didn't want it to be.

The fact that Gresil played E6 is something to note.

This move to me reeks of fear and uncertainty. To me, it was like Gresil was trying to avoid fighting because he was afraid of what might happen. Sure enough, looking at his comments, it looks like he was trying to read alternatives, but it was like lighting a match in a dark room: as the flame flickers, all you see are the shadows dancing around the walls, your own perception becomes unclear.

When a pro player plays a move like E6, he is clearly looking at the potential for play on a larger scale. He is thinking about many different things. When a kyu player plays E6, he is trying not to die. At least, that's how I was as a kyu player.

And then Topazg's assessment of the scenario. He, of course, knew the joseki, but didn't want to undermine Gresil's idea.

However, I feel that the purpose of this game is to learn from stronger players, and I don't think Gresil will be able to do that if we keep him in his comfort zone like this.

Since I think that Gresil was trying to avoid fighting, I forcibly started one, in hopes that in the following variations, he can get some insight into how players a bit stronger than he is fight, and hopefully, that will help him gain some more confidence in fighting in the future.


One thing I notice when I review kyu games and one thing I notice about my own play when I was weaker is how limited the scope of moves that a kyu player considers.

I feel that without experimenting with ideas that go against intuition and beyond the books that you've read, improving is not easy.

So here's hoping that this move will also broaden the scope of moves that Gresil considers.

Last edited by Violence; 2010-04-08 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 2010-04-08, 12:35 PM   #156
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It would be nice for little brothers to post what they think of the changes, and any insights they might have gained.
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Old 2010-04-08, 12:39 PM   #157
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Hidden Section:

Fascinating how Gresil and Terr both came up with the exact same wrong move.

I'm pretty sure the descent is two points better than Gresil's move, but not sure if it's 4 points better. I think it might be, as it will let black hane (against white e14) without encumbrance.

Not that it matters as topazg (EDIT: I mean Joaz) and shapenaji are very unlikely to be satisfied with d15.
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Old 2010-04-08, 01:01 PM   #158
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresil View Post
If Terr's backers approve, my move is...
We do not. More later.

EDIT: This is a theoretically interesting position. It may take me some time to write about it properly. That, combined with Topazg's announcement in his game with Fwiffo that he is on vacation, leads me to think that I may not post for a day or two.
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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-08 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 2010-04-08, 01:04 PM   #159
Gresil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
It would be nice for little brothers to post what they think of the changes, and any insights they might have gained.
Since the explanations for the changes are hidden and the ramifications of the changes are yet to materialize on the board, I can only conjecture.

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10 - Joaz treats the pincer stone as disposable. Black could only neutralize it in gote, so it'll remain revivable even without the extension Terr would have played, which is probably what justifies the change.
11 - Topazg's change is in hindsight a minor detail. W16, if it survives the elders, removes the threat that my own choice of 11 was out to prevent, making the net result nigh zero. (EDIT: which is why W16 does not survive...)
15 - I'll have to see what happens to it.
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Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-08 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 2010-04-08, 01:24 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
It would be nice for little brothers to post what they think of the changes, and any insights they might have gained.
Sure. I tried to deal with the implied suggestions of Joaz's corrections in my analyses, but will try to do so more in the future. Similarly I will try to speculate more on opponent changes as well. Otherwise, if you have any specific questions or remarks, feel free to ask and I can explain my reactions and thoughts further.
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