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Old 2010-04-12, 04:17 PM   #191
topazg
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Hidden Section:
Why I corrected the move:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 2 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

The size of this corner just feels intolerable to me. Especially as the latest White move is borderline sente because of "a"... The alternative just feels worse:




Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X 2 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

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Old 2010-04-12, 04:25 PM   #192
Terr
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Default Move #18A



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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B:5
W:8

Joaz and shapenaji, check my math and let's see if this is as possible as I think it is...

Hidden Section:

Okay, if we're going to get ANYTHING out of this, we have to play locally. Thankfully, things look fine as frogs' hair up here for us. Let's compare local options.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X W b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code


'a' and 'b' are the ways to use the marked white stone. 'b' is safer, but more passive. Let's have a look at 'a'. If we can get 'a' and either win the fight or get 'b' anyways, then we want that. After all, no reason not get the cake and eat it, too. However, if I can find a variant of 'a' that leaves us cut off, I'll pick 'b' because it's a safe link that pushes black a little lower.

Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 5 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This can branch into several different options:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This looks fine to me. We're a bit low, but we take the corner with violence and black's wall has weak points.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This works too. Even if black connects under, I can extend to 'a' and have the advantage in that fight, too.

Okay, so if black plays at 2 in the first diagram, things look doable. Let's see what happens if black doesn't play along friendly-like.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is the peaceful way. It's reasonable, but I prefer the earlier diagrams. Let's look at if 3 is more aggressive.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 5 O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 5 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

And this can lead to two options. Either black can protect C12, or black can try to capture B9. If black protects C12:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Looks like things come out okay in the end. Locally, at least.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 O X 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

..and 'a' captures the three stones in a crane's nest, and 'b' prevents black from connecting under. Looking great for us.


So long story short, I'm seeing no downside to being aggressive and playing 'a' from the first diagram. So that's what we'll do.

Now, take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm not that confident in my ability to make this deep of analysis accurately, even with the diagrams to look at. So I may certainly have missed something, in which case I'm trusting my allies to correct me.

Secondly, I don't REALLY expect any of these diagrams to play all the way out. These are showing black resisting as firmly as possible. I fully expect black to draw back, sacrifice the corner, and take sente elsewhere. But for a big enough corner and stability, I think I'll be okay with that.
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Old 2010-04-12, 10:06 PM   #193
Joaz Banbeck
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Default Move 18B

Yet another pro level move by my teammate. I approve
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Old 2010-04-12, 10:34 PM   #194
shapenaji
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I also approve little brother's move
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Old 2010-04-12, 11:15 PM   #195
Gresil
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Default 19a



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

B:5
W:8


Hidden Section:

If black gets D16 it'll be sente against the corner, so white must play there. Then I'll hane and squeeze with 4 and 6 as in my previous message. I'm not sure of 8 yet.



Notice how the top hoshi had been missing since move 16B.
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Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-12 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 2010-04-14, 04:02 AM   #196
topazg
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Posts: 918
Default 19b

Correction:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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B:5
W:10

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Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
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$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 1 O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
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Our 4 stones are likely to die, as are the 2. I'd rather the 2 was a one without forcing White to get stronger and look after the important side. That one stone may be useful, but not right now!
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Old 2010-04-14, 05:12 AM   #197
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Not for the players

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I think Topazg's correction is slack. White can play atari then push several times. In the end black lives on the second line and black cannot cut anymore because of geta.
I predict it will be changed for the move Gresil proposed.
Overall I'm surprised Topazg and Joaz are not more familiar with the continuations after H16.
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Old 2010-04-14, 05:22 AM   #198
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It's interesting how Terr seems to fare better at finding acceptable plays.
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Old 2010-04-14, 07:45 AM   #199
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Eheh...





Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

B:5
W:11

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It's like watching a train wreck sometimes, being able to see my teammates' comments. I knew this was probably going to happen, but I have no way of stopping it without losing points like this. Oh well.

And to think... Gresil's next move will have to be corrected too...
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Old 2010-04-14, 09:20 AM   #200
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Awesome, hehe
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