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Old 2010-04-08, 04:32 AM   #141
Gresil
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Addendum to my previous hidden comment:
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I specifically meant the proverb Don't create two weak groups. H16 does just that while creating a small(ish) gap, with a bit of a push and teleport flavor.

I'm going to have to start a thread about this type of play after the game. I've never come across an explanation of the train of thought that leads to such evidently strong moves (that is, moves played by strong players) that seemingly violate elementary principles. No book or Sensei's page that I'm familiar with discusses it.

An interesting tangent occurs to me -- I remember not understanding someone's criticism of 501 Opening Problems as being a book of framework problems with a few opening problems thrown in. But the fact is that not one of the 501 problems has a move anything like this as answer, and now I'm wondering just how much that book has colored my idea of what's permissible or possible during the opening.

If you know of a problem book that does have moves like this as answers, feel free to recommend one outside hide tags.


As for the points issue, I'm good with a gentlepersons' agreement to not milk the rules.

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Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-08 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 2010-04-08, 08:58 AM   #142
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In topazg's quota system, there will be a strong incentive for the stronger players to not use up their quota, which keeps them from meddling too much. If they're low of moves when a difficult sequence comes up, they risk running out right before a little brother makes a big blunder.
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Old 2010-04-08, 09:06 AM   #143
topazg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
In topazg's quota system, there will be a strong incentive for the stronger players to not use up their quota, which keeps them from meddling too much. If they're low of moves when a difficult sequence comes up, they risk running out right before a little brother makes a big blunder.
That was my hope, yeah. That way there's no "oh, let's change this one, it might be worth 4 points or not, but it's so much more fun" either, like that last crazy move
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Old 2010-04-08, 09:44 AM   #144
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Not for players
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I should have said this before this whole discussion started, but from the start my prediction was that the team that expends more points correcting moves will lose. I just think that the temptation is too great, and people will probably underestimate how fast those penalty points will accumulate.

There's also a possible issue in a strong player changing the game to go down a path that a weaker player will have trouble understanding how to follow up, necessitating further costly corrections in the future.
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Old 2010-04-08, 09:50 AM   #145
Bill Spight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresil View Post
Addendum to my previous hidden comment:
Hidden Section:

I specifically meant the proverb Don't create two weak groups. H16 does just that while creating a small(ish) gap, with a bit of a push and teleport flavor.

I'm going to have to start a thread about this type of play after the game. I've never come across an explanation of the train of thought that leads to such evidently strong moves (that is, moves played by strong players) that seemingly violate elementary principles. No book or Sensei's page that I'm familiar with discusses it.


As for the points issue, I'm good with a gentlepersons' agreement to not milk the rules.
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You have to understand that a lot of go proverbs in English, well, ain't. Go is still young in the West, and amateurs have added their own ideas. Me, too. "When in doubt, tenuki." is mine, but I intended it as advice for learning go, not for choosing the best play. (It turns out that it is similar to an Oriental proverb. )

I think that the advice not to make two weak groups is a Western amateur idea that will not stand the test of time. I have certainly never followed it, except in specific circumstances where both groups are vulnerable to a twining attack.

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Old 2010-04-08, 10:12 AM   #146
Aphelion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topazg View Post
That was my hope, yeah. That way there's no "oh, let's change this one, it might be worth 4 points or not, but it's so much more fun" either, like that last crazy move
Well, there's also, "mmm, I'm nearing the cap, lets make a move just because "
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Old 2010-04-08, 10:47 AM   #147
Terr
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Default Move #16A


-- White 16 --
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc -- White 16 --
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Prisoners: B:2, W:6

All right, this game is kind of excellent. I saw the move played last night, but was in a place where I couldn't do my response. So the whole time I've been itching to get back, analyze, and play. The idea of playing fighting moves against a team led by a dan-level player is cool, and crazy-fun. Thank heavens I've got backup!

Hidden Section:


So, options. I said I could punish black if they tenuki, so I have a strong urge to jump in and try it. But let's calmly consider options first.

Either I can find a local move to attack the weak black group in the corner, I can play for a base in the north, though Violence just shrunk the size of the base we can make. Or, if I decide that we are stable enough in the corner for now, we can play somewhere entirely different. Perhaps an approach on the northeast. Let's list some options.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . d . . . . . f . e . . . . |
$$ | . c X , O . . B . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Okay, starting with 'a'.

Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X 2 O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Okay, if black responds like this, I should not play big for the whole corner, or my attack dies. Let's try something a little less all-or-nothing.


6 fills
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc 6 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X 4 O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This is less bad. We get a little of the corner, which makes our group safe. The downside is that it builds black some thickness, but at least 1) we get sente and 2) the black group will have to make a base at some point. We could either grab a big point on the north/east or we could do something to stabilize the group in the west, negating some of that thickness and reviving the attack on black's southwest group.



Now 'b'
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X . O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 8 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Okay, it SEEMS like the cut at 2 does not work for a fight, though I feel like I might be missing a good followup. Let's try cutting, but sacrificing the cutting stone for sente.


Best option?
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc Best option?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . X . , 6 . . b b , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

This seems playable? It gives black stability and a few points, but gives white (who is not yet fully alive) a solid wall to work with. White is not really alive, but it is out and has room to make at least one eye, so I'm not too concerned. It makes miai of a to attack versus one of the 'b's to form a stable group. While we get less in the corner and black gets more on the side, I kind of like this in comparison with the last 'a' diagram because it gives us a lot more options in the top.



I'm less optimistic about 'c'
Hidden Section:



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 W X . O . . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Yeah, something up here is really small, letting black fill in most of the weakness here for minimal pain. Not doing 'c'.



'd' would get me some eyespace, but it also lets black solidify stones that I want to keep weak. Bad juju there.

'e'-'g'... To tenuki or not to tenuki
Hidden Section:


As always, deciding whether or not to tenuki has a lot to do with how badly your opponent can punish you locally for it. Black could try to seal our corner group, but we can at least settle with the last sequence in 'a'. Black cannot attack the group until his own group is defended. Black could play locally to defend their group, but we would at least get to choose to defend our grup as well, if we wanted. What it comes down to in my mind is, most of the best tenukis seem to be on the topside. That last option from 'b' seems halfway forced on black's behalf, so it seems like a fairly safe way to build a wall, which then lets us fight better in this arena. So I like the idea of a tenuki, but I think that a local play will let us better tenuki after the sequence.



'a' gives solidity, 'b' gives influence and options for attacking. I'm really curious about how 'b' will work, so I think I'll give it a shot. Oh, and one last thing:


Best option?
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc Best option?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X . O . . X . , 1 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 3 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Yes, if black tenukis right away, I don't think they can prevent us from taking a monster piece of corner. So tenuki is unlikely.
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Last edited by Terr; 2010-04-08 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Changing move name
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Old 2010-04-08, 10:55 AM   #148
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shapenaji View Post
... I'm not trying my devilish best to crush you guys by any means necessary.
Be warned: I am. As much as the rules allow.

And I don't consider that to be in any way unethical or improper. Part of what I'm trying to acomplish with this experiment is to create an environment in which the desire to win necessitates doing something useful and good for others. Sort of like Adam Smith's 'invisible hand', in which the proverbial baker's desire for his own gain leads him to provide food for others.
If the rules are structured properly, a player who wants to win will have to determine the relative value of moves, and, by choosing to make or not make those moves, he will implicitly convey his opinion to the observers. The weaker observers learn something, even if the stronger player is purely selfish.
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Old 2010-04-08, 10:55 AM   #149
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This move too will be changed.
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Old 2010-04-08, 10:55 AM   #150
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Well, Violence is going to get at least two of those points back...

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