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Old 2010-04-06, 11:26 AM   #91
Joaz Banbeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphelion View Post
Note to Violence, it was decided that older brother's can read their younger Brother's hide tags. In this case, you can read everything Topazg and Gresil have posted
@Shapenaji: You also can read Terr's and my hidden comments.

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Old 2010-04-06, 11:28 AM   #92
Terr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaz Banbeck View Post
@Shapenaji: You also can read Terr's and my hidden comments.
By all means do, that will help ya'all better understand my mistaken analyses. That way, you can address them more specifically in your comments, which will help me more.
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Old 2010-04-06, 11:48 AM   #93
Joaz Banbeck
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Hidden Section:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joaz Banbeck View Post
When black has to make the first move on the side, it is very easy for black to make the wrong extension...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresil View Post


Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

B: 2
W: 0
This looks like one of the many possibilities for going wrong.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If we play the obvious 2, then 1 is clearly in the wrong place. It looks better at 'a'.

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Last edited by Joaz Banbeck; 2010-04-06 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:09 PM   #94
topazg
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Default #11

Move changed... new proposal:


-*- Move #11 -*-
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc -*- Move #11 -*-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Prisoners
Black: 2
White: 2


Hidden Section:
Ok, really sorry to change the move here, but this is definitely joseki, and I'm happy for to continue as normal:


-*- Move #11 -*-
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc -*- Move #11 -*-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Now we can properly attack White's stone - if White plays to protect it, the new move is more aggressive for attacking the top approach. I think the flexibility of this is at least 2 points better, and I prefer the fact it is an actual joseki where we benefit whether the opponent sticks to it or not.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:12 PM   #95
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Yay, my joseki!
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:19 PM   #96
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Hidden Section:

Oh, I did consider the keima too. I just forgot to mention it. It leaves an open skirt, even if only temporarily (doesn't the high extension downright dictate that I extend around C10 during this local sequence? That feels like an unflexible prospect), and... I felt that it pressures white too much in a situation where he'll still be under pressure no matter where he plays next. Pressure may provoke a fighting response that complicates things. I don't know how sensible or appropriate such a train of thought is here, though.


Still, all right. I'll manage.
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Last edited by Gresil; 2010-04-06 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:23 PM   #97
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only for the observer. not for the players.

Hidden Section:

now the question is does that change worth 2 points?
my personal feeling is....no.
2 point is bigger than one might think.
there will be a time where it gets complicated and need to change critical mistake then it worth it.
but..in an opening????
i am surprised to see that change.

i might have played that exptension and would've been content.
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Old 2010-04-06, 01:27 PM   #98
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only for the observer. not for the players.

Hidden Section:

now the question is does that change worth 2 points?
my personal feeling is....no.
2 point is bigger than one might think.
there will be a time where it gets complicated and need to change critical mistake then it worth it.
but..in an opening????
i am surprised to see that change.

i might have played that exptension and would've been content.


this would've been my personal preference. black in the corner is not the urgent. now is the perfect time to tenuki and attack that weak white stone.
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc this would've been my personal preference. black in the corner is not the urgent. now is the perfect time to tenuki and attack that weak white stone.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
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Old 2010-04-06, 03:24 PM   #99
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Approved.

Hidden Section:

Just what I wanted.
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Old 2010-04-06, 04:30 PM   #100
Terr
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Default W12


-*- Move #12 -*-
Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc -*- Move #12 -*-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code
Prisoners
Black: 2
White: 2

Hmmm, the two changed moves drastically changes the focus of the game (to an area that's probably much more important, admittedly). Time for some fresh analysis.

Hidden Section:

Okay, the implied suggestion from Joaz is that the top is more important than defending the western stone. Especially since black's two 3-4 stones are focused towards the sides, the top does look quite large. Topaz shifted the response to a knight's move, so that it leans towards the new northern stone. That makes me want to defend it in some way. Let's look around at our options for moves.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . a a . . . . . f . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . f , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

Okay, let's take it from the top.

A is an attempt to solidify a bit, and defend. It's okay, but black would get a free followup, that has potential to be scary (Around c, or to the right of a, or other places)

B puts a bit of pressure on the corner group, but it's creating a second weak group for us to defend.

C gives a little support to the D7 stone, but allows black to attack in the north.

D lets black wall in D7 better while claiming more of the corner. Something to consider for later, but it may be at too low-priority of area right now.

E I'd love, to stake out a big chunk in the south, but our southern group is probably stable enough, so weak groups have higher priority.

F is tempting to me. It gives black the option of attacking the northwest at the cost of the northeast, or lets us play something in the middle to help both fight.

G is complicated, and makes me wish I knew joseki better. Let's look at it.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

If black resists like this, it gets mostly sealed in, and we can either defend the cut at a or block black in completely at b.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

More peacefully, this gives some stability, though it ends in our gote.



Show Diagram Code[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
[/go]Hide Diagram Code

And black can't play here, because it leaves too many weaknesses. We'd win this fight, any way you slice it.

Could black tenuki from G? Sure, you can tenuki from anything. But there is big followup here, so doing so would be mostly abandoning the whole corner, which isn't going to happen.

Looking at the options I listed, most of them are either bad ideas or for later. The ones that don't leave us with too many weak groups defend either the west or the north. As Joaz seemed to imply, the north is big right now. So a, g, or f. F appeals to the part of me that constantly wants to attack SOMETHING, but that leaves us with three weak groups, and I can't defend nearly that well. Of a or g, a seems to be too passive. Black can choose between nabbing much more corner, or attacking elsewhere. G may not end up in sente (depending on the followups chosen), but it buys us more stability and cornerspace. Let's go with it!
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