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 Post subject: The Importance of Blitz
Post #1 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:38 am 
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The message below is from a book of Honinbo Jowa. part of a book, which quotes a message from Honinbo Jowa.

Greed is a move from dragging on time to find a move you don't see. Keep playing this way brings regression. The right way means less greed. Playing fast is a good way to remind this. No greed can grow when things are fast. Without greed, plays are good, and will progress. This is what a beginner should first keep in mind.

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Last edited by lovelove on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #2 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:41 am 
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Mmmm, lovely quote - did he have a context?

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #3 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:51 am 
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topazg wrote:
Mmmm, lovely quote - did he have a context?

It is from 坐隱談叢. I don't know the English (Japanese) pronunciation. This is from a part about right (正) and wicked (邪) moves, which he connects to "greed"

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #4 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:04 am 
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I mean a context with respect to what constitutes fast and slow?

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #5 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:06 am 
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topazg wrote:
I mean a context with respect to what constitutes fast and slow?

Ah no, he just suggests it as a way to get rid of "greed" and play the "right" move, for the opposite of "wicked".

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:39 am 
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Ah, ok. I wish we could know whether he was referring to 10 seconds blitz or whatever - what kind of time controls were "fast" in Jowa's time? Certainly there was an abundance of very long controls in important titles to potentially compare "fast" to.

John / Bill / Dave, do you have any input?

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:29 pm 
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topazg wrote:
Mmmm, lovely quote - did he have a context?


This is from Jowa's Go Advice, which is one or two pages long. It is where I got the Jowa says, Don't run, advice, as well as the advice to assess the position after 30, 50, and 100 moves. :) I have not translated it, because I am unsure about some of it. For instance, by wakare does Jowa mean the middle game? (Which is not current usage.)

I don't think that by quick play ( 早打ち ) Jowa meant blitz. In those days games could take months (!). I think that he would consider a game that took an hour to be quick. :) I think that he is cautioning against digging deep to try to find the hidden, killer play. The right way is this:

其の術、早打ちにして、手筋を心掛けるにあり。

That way is to play quickly and try to play tesuji.

I also suspect that Buddhism is a significant part of the context, as when he talks about the correct path ( 正道 ). Perhaps his reference is not to the beginner, but has to do with the beginner's mind, zen mind idea.

これ初心第一の心意なり。

This is to keep in mind putting the beginner's mind first. (I am keeping 初心第一 together {beginner's mind first} instead of 第一の心意 {first intention}, which I think is what lovelove's translation does.)

You see why I did not translate this. ;) Maybe someone else can provide a good translation. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #8 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:27 pm 
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This is an interesting topic. I find that because I play few but very slow and thought out games, my moves are generally edging on greedy, because both my opponent and I have much time to consider variations.

However, sometimes during a game, I still miss incredibly simple moves, and this kills a group, or ruins a position. This happens at least once every two games, and is a habit I had in Chess and other games too.

Faster games seems like a good cure to this, just to get a great eye for basic intuitive moves. Does this make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #9 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
topazg wrote:
Mmmm, lovely quote - did he have a context?


This is from Jowa's Go Advice, which is one or two pages long. It is where I got the Jowa says, Don't run, advice, as well as the advice to assess the position after 30, 50, and 100 moves. :) I have not translated it, because I am unsure about some of it. For instance, by wakare does Jowa mean the middle game? (Which is not current usage.)

I don't think that by quick play ( 早打ち ) Jowa meant blitz. In those days games could take months (!). I think that he would consider a game that took an hour to be quick. :) I think that he is cautioning against digging deep to try to find the hidden, killer play. The right way is this:

其の術、早打ちにして、手筋を心掛けるにあり。

That way is to play quickly and try to play tesuji.

I also suspect that Buddhism is a significant part of the context, as when he talks about the correct path ( 正道 ). Perhaps his reference is not to the beginner, but has to do with the beginner's mind, zen mind idea.

これ初心第一の心意なり。

This is to keep in mind putting the beginner's mind first. (I am keeping 初心第一 together {beginner's mind first} instead of 第一の心意 {first intention}, which I think is what lovelove's translation does.)

You see why I did not translate this. ;) Maybe someone else can provide a good translation. :)

Thank you for the correction.

When I translate Japanese, I first convert the kanjis in Korean, which can be done one by one. Next, translate the postpositions depending on context.

I first knew today that 手筋 is pronounced "tesuji". It is not a word existing in Korean, but I know the Kanji means "move muscle (power)". There also is a famous go book called 手筋大事典. So I thought 手筋 should mean "an important move".

In case of 初心第一の心意, I am quite sure my translation is correct, that "a beginner should first keep (this) in mind".

I should also always be careful the check the historical backgrounds, such as understanding 早打ち as playing blitz.

Thanks again. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #10 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Lyzl wrote:
Faster games seems like a good cure to this, just to get a great eye for basic intuitive moves. Does this make sense?

I think this is the point of Jowa's.

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #11 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:29 pm 
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but does it work, or does it develop bad habits? :P

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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #12 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Lyzl wrote:
but does it work, or does it develop bad habits? :P
If playing fast makes you play more intuitively, then it seems that the value of the habits you develop depends on whether your intuition is good or bad. I would guess that most beginners have terrible intuition. The advice may work better for stronger players, whose intuitions are more finely honed. That makes me think that the central message is really "Don't try to be too clever, because you will be hoisted by your own petard" rather than "Play fast". The advice seems aimed at people who think too much about making gains with each move, so that they can moderate themselves. Most kyu players probably have the opposite problem. Different strokes for different folks. What is appropriate advice for one person may be bad advice for another.

As with all advice on go, I do not think that this advice is meant to be an absolute, but merely points out one of the virtues of faster play. Also, as Bill points out, what is meant by fast play by Jowa may seem like an eternity to online blitzers. The "fast" games in Chinese pro leagues have 1 hour of main time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #13 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Lyzl wrote:
but does it work, or does it develop bad habits? :P

For beginners, I think what it does is to help you see/realize your own mistakes quicker. Because the sooner you can learn from your mistakes, the sooner you can correct them (even if during the same game), and the quicker you can become stronger.

I've seen beginners almost paralyze themselves for seemingly hours trying to figure out their next {useless} move -- not realizing yet that their mistake was several moves earlier (and a long time ago)

So how can you play faster if you already don't know where to play? At that level, its more about experimenting with what works and what doesn't -- seeing what happens and learning, rather than winning or losing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #14 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:26 pm 
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I think even a beginner should have some idea or expectation (or hope) of what might happen when a move is played. Whether things then go as expected or not some learning takes place. Just playing a move to see what happens is not a very good idea. Sure, some learning could take place, but the goal in playing go is to see what will happen before you play the move, and the sooner you start trying to do that the better. Naturally a beginner won't be able to see very far ahead, maybe only one move, but it is the beginning of reading.


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 Post subject: Re: The Importance of Blitz
Post #15 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:58 pm 
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gowan wrote:
...

yeah, I oversimplify for dramatic effect

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