Is it possible to play Go without strategy?

SmoothOper · **#101**

lightvector wrote:

and making the tesuji he's studied relevant and your tesujis irrelevant?

So yeah like competing strategies and stuff.

Phelan · **#102**

Yuc4h wrote:

The level of your reading is simply the factor that defines probably around 90% of your playing strength. I made the mistake of studying high level strategy, fuseki, etc. from books at around 5k and I think it was a waste of time. The almost the only books needed until maybe kgs 3d are problem books. It really doesn't matter what you do strategically if your opponent has stronger reading skills than you. Your frameworks will be paper and it will be difficult for you to survive the whole game without making a blunder.

The way I see it is it seems some people in this thread are just trying to justify to themselves that they don't need practice reading for it is hard work. Sure, it's nice and relaxed to read a strategy book compared to wrestling with tsumego, but it's also mostly useless.

I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).

Yuc4h · **#103**

Phelan wrote:

I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).

I totally agree. The book I have enjoyed the most up to date was the infamous yellow book by Kageyama. However, there is difference between having fun and improving. When we are talking about go, luckily the two are mostly overlapping usually. I was stuck at the ~2k kgs barrier for a year or so. I was having fun playing and watching some teaching videos etc, but it turned out that I couldn't gain solid improvement without actually deciding to improve. And now, not long after, I'm the crappiest of dan players

I think that all dan players (probably excluding those that gained their rank through years and years of playing) can confirm that in order to break away from the kyu ranks you have to actually decide to be willing to walk the distance and not just loiter around

Phelan · **#104**

Yuc4h wrote:

Phelan wrote:

I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).

I totally agree. The book I have enjoyed the most up to date was the infamous yellow book by Kageyama. However, there is difference between having fun and improving. When we are talking about go, luckily the two are mostly overlapping usually. I was stuck at the ~2k kgs barrier for a year or so. I was having fun playing and watching some teaching videos etc, but it turned out that I couldn't gain solid improvement without actually deciding to improve. And now, not long after, I'm the crappiest of dan players

I think that all dan players (probably excluding those that gained their rank through years and years of playing) can confirm that in order to break away from the kyu ranks you have to actually decide to be willing to walk the distance and not just loiter around

Yeah, I know that a lot of people feel the same way with Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals. That one is still an Improving book, in my opinion, since it deals with improving your mentality towards Go.
I personally didn't take much from it, though. ;-)

billywoods · **#105**

SmoothOper wrote:

two strategies one emphasizing lightness and flexibility and another thickness and influence will have different tesuji and it isn't a good idea to mix the two

Right, but your strategy will differ from one game to the next. You don't just pick a strategy before the game starts and run with it no matter what your opponent's doing. That's stupid. Sometimes you need to play lightly, sometimes you need to take influence. It's not a good idea to mix the two in the same sequence, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't know both.

SmoothOper · **#106**

billywoods wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

two strategies one emphasizing lightness and flexibility and another thickness and influence will have different tesuji and it isn't a good idea to mix the two

Right, but your strategy will differ from one game to the next. You don't just pick a strategy before the game starts and run with it no matter what your opponent's doing. That's stupid. Sometimes you need to play lightly, sometimes you need to take influence. It's not a good idea to mix the two in the same sequence, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't know both.

I disagree, certain openings IE the first move will immediately key a certain style of play. Maybe you always play hoshi, but if you play 34,33,54, tengen, etc there are some things, you just don't plan on doing the rest of the game.

gogameguru · **#107**

You're forgetting that Go is a two player game...

SmoothOper · **#108**

gogameguru wrote:

You're forgetting that Go is a two player game...

Doesn't matter... I haven't played the diagonal fuseki for years, even as white, I don't see why I should start studying that opening now, it might as well be irrelevant, even if the other player likes it very much.

gogameguru · **#109**

Cool story bro.

billywoods · **#110**

SmoothOper wrote:

Doesn't matter... I haven't played the diagonal fuseki for years, even as white, I don't see why I should start studying that opening now, it might as well be irrelevant, even if the other player likes it very much.

And, as gogameguru says, go is a two-player game. Anything you can do, your opponent can do. If your opponent doesn't like your favourite fuseki, they will simply go and approach your corner on move 2, and there's nothing you can do about it except rethink your whole game from scratch.

This is precisely what makes go interesting.

SmoothOper · **#111**

billywoods wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

Doesn't matter... I haven't played the diagonal fuseki for years, even as white, I don't see why I should start studying that opening now, it might as well be irrelevant, even if the other player likes it very much.

And, as gogameguru says, go is a two-player game. Anything you can do, your opponent can do. If your opponent doesn't like your favourite fuseki, they will simply go and approach your corner on move 2, and there's nothing you can do about it except rethink your whole game from scratch.

This is precisely what makes go interesting.

Being able to disrupt a strategy with approach moves, seems a bit naive, since approach moves are so common, maybe even predictable.

balmung · **#112**

Yes, it is impossible to be a strong pro without being a strategist. Go is a game of war, not a game of one battle like chess. Wars have always been one by great strategists, you cannot through a bunch of men at your enemy and hope to win if he is a strategist. Let's take the Vietnam war for example. America's lead general was an expert at tactics, attrition style war. North Vietnam's general was a Go player, and used strategy to win fights. Using sun tzu's principal of sacrifice and spy's, America was forced to quit the war. In Go a spy is a probe, and sacrifice is the ability to let some stones die in the process of taking a larger amount of territory. Strategy in war and go is a master plan that is setup up in fuseki and accomplished by yose. Another Go player of interest sun tzu, he is in the top five strategists in history, the art of war teaches a lot of strategic prinicpals that are relevant to Go players.

speedchase · **#113**

balmung wrote:

Let's take the Vietnam war for example. America's lead general was an expert at tactics, attrition style war. North Vietnam's general was a Go player, and used strategy to win fights. Using sun tzu's principal of sacrifice and spy's, America was forced to quit the war.

This is certainly an argument go players like but does it really have any historical legitimacy?
To the Vietnamese, it was a war for their land, and for their beliefs, a fight to the death. To the Americans it was a war to liberate others. Considering that, as well as the fact that the Vietnamese were fighting on their own soil, is there really any question of who won, go versus large army vs small army? The result just makes sense considered that way.

topazg · **#114**

To me, occasionally coming across things like this (a game of mine recently) is what makes Go interesting, and why you can't ignore the study of overall strategic concepts in the hope you can avoid them:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

PS I'm White.

Phelan · **#115**

Nice! Can I see the full game?

I have to say I especially like :w6:

.

lobotommy · **#116**

Maybe Smoothoper just use wrong word here from the very begining. Hey mr S - maybe every time you use word strategy you think a "plan".
And second thing - how old are you? This would explain much to everyone trying to reason with your unpenetrable mind.

Is it possible to play Go without strategy?

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