Joseki Ladder Breaker's value

SmoothOper · #1

How much is having a ladder breaker in place worth? In other words, can a proficient opponent avoid ladder joseki with little detriment? I assume that in amateur games it could be used effectively as an ambush, but for more informed players.

skydyr · #2

I don't think there's a simple answer to this question, as it depends on the position, the ladder-dependent joseki, and how much of a detriment the alternative is. With some joseki, one side will completely fall apart without picking a radically different line with different goals. With others, there might be a loss of a few points to get the same or an equally good goal.

Do you have a specific joseki in mind?

SmoothOper · #3

It is pretty general, but I have been trying to research the takamoku ladder variation in conjunction with tengen. Obviously there are a number of ladder variations that shouldn't arise, but is it worth playing tengen to prepare for it?

moyoaji · #4

It depends.

From what I've seen in games a ladder breaker in a joseki can be of enormous value. If you can get a free move on the other half of the board in an important fight as a result of creating a high-value ladder in a joseki, it is huge. Otherwise it might just be worth a few points for a free big move.

I hope you've looked at Lee Sedol's ladder game. It seems to suggest that a ladder breaker in two joseki can be worth as much as creating an immortal game. And you can't put a value on that.

http://eidogo.com/#1JsMLqp

SmoothOper · #5

moyoaji wrote:

It depends.

From what I've seen in games a ladder breaker in a joseki can be of enormous value. If you can get a free move on the other half of the board in an important fight as a result of creating a high-value ladder in a joseki, it is huge. Otherwise it might just be worth a few points for a free big move.

I hope you've looked at Lee Sedol's ladder game. It seems to suggest that a ladder breaker in two joseki can be worth as much as creating an immortal game. And you can't put a value on that.

http://eidogo.com/#1JsMLqp

My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Tenuki. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

oren · #6

SmoothOper wrote:

My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.

I would guess it's more or less an equal result.

SmoothOper · #7

The two variations kogo tutor have for white are

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has severe options available:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

**edited, accidentally hit submit instead of preview**

moyoaji · #8

SmoothOper wrote:

My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.

Well, if you play the ladder breaker at tengen first that just means your opponent probably won't play in such a way that they set up a ladder. So I guess tengen would be the way to avoid ladder joseki from the 5-4. This should be beneficial as some of the ladder joseki are the best ways to resist getting sealed in the corner.

However, there are plenty of decent 5-4 joseki that don't involve ladders. The most common response I typically get to a 5-4 joseki is the attachment underneath which then can result in this basic joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Common 5-4 joseki $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But this is my personal favorite to play. I know pros don't use it nowadays and the thickness you get is awkward, but I'm okay with the result for black because white is basically sealed in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm8 , captured $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 1 5 . . . . . $$ | 9 C C O 4 . . . . $$ | . 7 O X . X . . . $$ | . 8 O X . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

SmoothOper · #9

moyoaji wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

My question is more about playing the ladder breaker first in following example does 3 enough value to justify playing it, or will white be able to get an acceptable development anyway.

Well, if you play the ladder breaker at tengen first that just means your opponent probably won't play in such a way that they set up a ladder. So I guess tengen would be the way to avoid ladder joseki from the 5-4. This should be beneficial as some of the ladder joseki are the best ways to resist getting sealed in the corner.

However, there are plenty of decent 5-4 joseki that don't involve ladders. The most common response I typically get to a 5-4 joseki is the attachment underneath which then can result in this basic joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Common 5-4 joseki $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 6 , . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

According to kogo's tutor, black 5 at 6 will lead to a ladder, so this one doesn't have a ladder because presumably white has the opposing corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Common 5-4 joseki $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 8 a . . . . . $$ | . . 7 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 6 . 3 . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

white next at a or b.

HermanHiddema · **#10**

Ladder breakers have value, obviously. But a move needs to do more than just break a ladder to be of value. Always try to play multi-purpose moves. In the opening, a move that serves as a ladder breaker is only good if it also achieves something else, such as expanding a moyo, reducing an opponent's position or setting up an attack.

So in your example, you are also expanding a moyo with tengen, therefore it looks quite playable.

As a counter-example, consider this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here

is a ladder breaker, but achieves little else. It is still not without value, of course, but it is not a very good move.

SmoothOper · **#11**

HermanHiddema wrote:

So in your example, you are also expanding a moyo with tengen, therefore it looks quite playable.

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.

amnal · **#12**

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?

A serious threat to do what? It's a fine move, try playing it and see how it goes. Do you feel that all moves in a normal opening must be a 'serious threat', and if so what do you think tengen lacks in that department?

Quote:

Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at.

I find that whatever way I play, it takes some effort. Even where I might think there's a difference, I've previously come to the conclusion that the feeling is mostly an illusion and everything will probably turn out fine and be basically the same after a few moves anyway.

Regardless of whether you agree, you may as well try playing some tengen openings and see what happens. It's a perfectly good move, and even if you find some reason to not like it at least you learned something.

Quote:

Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.

Why isn't it ideal? Not that you have to play it, you could make a moyoish extension or whatever and it'd probably be fine.

HermanHiddema · **#13**

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.

A quick search in my GoGoD database returns 5 games where black played two 5-4 stones plus tengen as the first three moves. In most, the opponent immediately invaded the moyo.

SmoothOper · **#14**

HermanHiddema wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat? Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at. Suppose white doesn't play under the takamoku for example and makes an enclosure. The takamoku enclosure seems to be the 3-4 5-4 enclosure, which isn't ideal for the tengen moyo.

A quick search in my GoGoD database returns 5 games where black played two 5-4 stones plus tengen as the first three moves. In most, the opponent immediately invaded the moyo.

I posted those on Fairburn's Segoe thread. I think it is interesting that white didn't approach in those games.

amnal wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?

A serious threat to do what? It's a fine move, try playing it and see how it goes. Do you feel that all moves in a normal opening must be a 'serious threat', and if so what do you think tengen lacks in that department?

Tempo is something of a consensus that tengen lacks.

amnal wrote:

Quote:

Playing this way would take quite some effort to develop though, and there aren't many resources like pro games to look at.

I find that whatever way I play, it takes some effort. Even where I might think there's a difference, I've previously come to the conclusion that the feeling is mostly an illusion and everything will probably turn out fine and be basically the same after a few moves anyway.
.

You're probably right, but to flip the coin, I recommend picking an off the beaten path Fuseki/strategy and working out all the details both strengths and weaknesses sometime.

wineandgolover · **#15**

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?

Tengen can be used for moyo, but it is potentially even more useful in running battles. It is partially psychological. As black, instead of a single stone, pretend you've made a ponnuki in the middle. Use it for fighting because it cuts off escape routes.

If you just think of it as a ladder breaker, it is most definitely not a good play.

But if it is ladder breaker, plus moyo builder, plus fight assister, then it can be a great move.

SmoothOper · **#16**

wineandgolover wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?

Tengen can be used for moyo, but it is potentially even more useful in running battles. It is partially psychological. As black, instead of a single stone, pretend you've made a ponnuki in the middle. Use it for fighting because it cuts off escape routes.

If you just think of it as a ladder breaker, it is most definitely not a good play.

But if it is ladder breaker, plus moyo builder, plus fight assister, then it can be a great move.

Yes running battles! Of course picking the battles so that they don't interfere with ladders for example could be tricky.

drmwc · **#17**

An interesting feature of san-ren-sei is that it breaks all the ladders hitting the side it is on. I think it may be the only 3-move formation with this property. For example, any ladder in the direction of the arrows below will be broken.

I don't think this on its own is a reaon to play san-ren-sei. But it's an interesting feature of this opening.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Ladder break $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${AR M3 Q8} $${AR N16 Q13} $${AR M8 Q12}[/go]

SmoothOper · **#18**

drmwc wrote:

An interesting feature of san-ren-sei is that it breaks all the ladders hitting the side it is on. I think it may be the only 3-move formation with this property. For example, any ladder in the direction of the arrows below will be broken.

I don't think this on its own is a reaon to play san-ren-sei. But it's an interesting feature of this opening.

I agree for example

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Ladder break $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . a 3 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Neither the ladder at a or the ladder following b work for black. Also with the pincher, tengen is well positioned for white to run into the center with a pincher.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Ladder break $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . 8 6 9 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joseki Ladder Breaker's value

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