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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #21 Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:01 pm 
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Boidhre wrote:
Mef wrote:
I would assume the 10:1 includes all study of all kinds (tsumego, reviewing played games, etc)...even then might be a little steep. Imagine you were a series go student. If you studied 10 hours in a day you'd allow for one game/day. This might work if you ignore tournaments...but still sounds like too much... of course I'm one of those of the opinion you can't learn to box just by reading a book...


You can't learn to box by just stepping into the ring either (believe me ;)). With any martial art the amount of training that surrounds competitive fighting is enormous for serious practitioners, far more than 10:1.



How much of that training is reading a book?

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #22 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:13 am 
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Mef wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
Mef wrote:
I would assume the 10:1 includes all study of all kinds (tsumego, reviewing played games, etc)...even then might be a little steep. Imagine you were a series go student. If you studied 10 hours in a day you'd allow for one game/day. This might work if you ignore tournaments...but still sounds like too much... of course I'm one of those of the opinion you can't learn to box just by reading a book...


You can't learn to box by just stepping into the ring either (believe me ;)). With any martial art the amount of training that surrounds competitive fighting is enormous for serious practitioners, far more than 10:1.



How much of that training is reading a book?


How much of studying go involves a book? Less that half if you do it correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:07 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
Mef wrote:
I would assume the 10:1 includes all study of all kinds (tsumego, reviewing played games, etc)...even then might be a little steep. Imagine you were a series go student. If you studied 10 hours in a day you'd allow for one game/day. This might work if you ignore tournaments...but still sounds like too much... of course I'm one of those of the opinion you can't learn to box just by reading a book...


You can't learn to box by just stepping into the ring either (believe me ;)). With any martial art the amount of training that surrounds competitive fighting is enormous for serious practitioners, far more than 10:1.


Well, the risks associated with actual fighting is much higher than actually playing games, so I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison :p

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:40 pm 
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Mef wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
Mef wrote:
I would assume the 10:1 includes all study of all kinds (tsumego, reviewing played games, etc)...even then might be a little steep. Imagine you were a series go student. If you studied 10 hours in a day you'd allow for one game/day. This might work if you ignore tournaments...but still sounds like too much... of course I'm one of those of the opinion you can't learn to box just by reading a book...


You can't learn to box by just stepping into the ring either (believe me ;)). With any martial art the amount of training that surrounds competitive fighting is enormous for serious practitioners, far more than 10:1.



How much of that training is reading a book?


The point was it's a poor analogy. Sure, books aren't really much of a part of boxing training, this doesn't mean that you don't do a load of training if you want to box competitively or that insei need to get the skipping rope out.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #25 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Boidhre wrote:

The point was it's a poor analogy. Sure, books aren't really much of a part of boxing training, this doesn't mean that you don't do a load of training if you want to box competitively or that insei need to get the skipping rope out.


I would suspect that an insei should get the skipping rope out. Mental fitness is important, but it will not suffice alone. In most games physical fitness is also essential.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #26 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:00 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Boidhre wrote:

The point was it's a poor analogy. Sure, books aren't really much of a part of boxing training, this doesn't mean that you don't do a load of training if you want to box competitively or that insei need to get the skipping rope out.


I would suspect that an insei should get the skipping rope out. Mental fitness is important, but it will not suffice alone. In most games physical fitness is also essential.


Getting the skipping rope out was a reference to boxing specific physical training.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:22 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
How much of studying go involves a book? Less that half if you do it correctly.


Tsumego books should probably be more than 50% of study alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #28 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:32 pm 
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emerus wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
How much of studying go involves a book? Less that half if you do it correctly.


Tsumego books should probably be more than 50% of study alone.


Nonsense. Reviewing your games should be at least half of study.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #29 Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:47 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
emerus wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
How much of studying go involves a book? Less that half if you do it correctly.


Tsumego books should probably be more than 50% of study alone.


Nonsense. Reviewing your games should be at least half of study.


Nonsense. Reviewing your games should be at most 46.34% of study.

Edit: to add to my completely unexplained assertion, it would be strange to spend 5 times as much time to review games assuming a 10:1 ratio. A game taking an hour and a half would then require a review of 7.5 hours.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #30 Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:18 am 
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I think that the benefits of playing a lot diminish the stronger you get and the benefits of studying diminsh the weaker you are. What use is all the guidance, theory, and explanations in the world to a 28k player who still hasn't gotton much of a feel for basic shapes, concepts, or ideas yet? Just play more; it'll do you a lot of good. But what if you're a 6d amateur? You already know so much about the game (Which is probably still close to nothing at all in the grand scheme of things :roll: ). Your opponets aren't going to be weak either, and I doubt there's more that you can figure out on your own that you already don't know just by playing. Maybe there's a balance of the two at SDK levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Ten hours of study for every one hour of play
Post #31 Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
I think that the benefits of playing a lot diminish the stronger you get and the benefits of studying diminsh the weaker you are. What use is all the guidance, theory, and explanations in the world to a 28k player who still hasn't gotton much of a feel for basic shapes, concepts, or ideas yet? Just play more; it'll do you a lot of good. But what if you're a 6d amateur? You already know so much about the game (Which is probably still close to nothing at all in the grand scheme of things :roll: ). Your opponets aren't going to be weak either, and I doubt there's more that you can figure out on your own that you already don't know just by playing. Maybe there's a balance of the two at SDK levels.


I don't know about the SDK level being the midpoint specifically (shodan is starting to looklike where you stop being a beginner, as I get stronger), but this idea seems quite reasonable to me. After all, one usually doesn't give rank beginners the advice to spend 10 hours studying tesuji before they start playing.

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