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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:24 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
You mean like this?

How about this:
Quote:
Curkananotes prisoneens' facaninil brendus iseranced bnoyed paittillabay falilny atbead.

Cantankerous pensioners' financial burdens increased beyond palatability finally abated.


It's not of much help that English isn't particularly phonetic to begin with.


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Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:11 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I learned to read using phonics, and that worked well, despite the vagaries of English spelling. However, teaching kids to read by recognizing whole words caught on in the US, and I suppose, in the UK. Apparently the learning curve is pretty steep at first. In addition, parents were not able to help their kids learn to read by the whole word method. That's why we started seeing ads on TV for aids to teaching phonics. I don't see those ads much these days. Maybe phonics made a comeback in the schools. Or maybe parents who were taught by the whole word method were happy with their kids learning that way.

BTW, the shortened version illustrates the fact that most of the meaning of text is carried by the consonants. :)


I learned whole word, my kids are being taught in school with phonics. The pendulum has swung back, possibly too far, English doesn't lend itself that well to phonics alone and word lists based on phonics are less useful to children than word lists based on frequency. The linguist David Crystal commented on the pointlessness of having children learn off words they neither will read or write in the next year rather than giving them word lists of the things they will want to write down and read. Kind of like whether you mention "rite" when explaining the difference between "right" and "write" to a learner to take an extreme example.

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #23 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:44 am 
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leichtloeslich wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
You mean like this?

How about this:
Quote:
Curkananotes prisoneens' facaninil brendus iseranced bnoyed paittillabay falilny atbead.

Cantankerous pensioners' financial burdens increased beyond palatability finally abated.


It's not of much help that English isn't particularly phonetic to begin with.


It's also not much help to have non-random strings inside words, to use infrequent words, and to use garden path grammar or headline speak. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Cntkrs pnsnrs' fnncil brdns ncrsd bynd pltblty fnly abtd.


Can I buy a vowel? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #24 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:49 am 
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daal wrote:
For simplicity's sake, let's just look at Black to Kill type problems.


I believe "White to live" is considerably more complex, and that suggests there is something artificial about this business.

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Post #25 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:26 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
I learned whole word, my kids are being taught in school with phonics. The pendulum has swung back, possibly too far, English doesn't lend itself that well to phonics alone and word lists based on phonics are less useful to children than word lists based on frequency. The linguist David Crystal commented on the pointlessness of having children learn off words they neither will read or write in the next year rather than giving them word lists of the things they will want to write down and read. Kind of like whether you mention "rite" when explaining the difference between "right" and "write" to a learner to take an extreme example.


Don't wee want are kids too rite rite?

I thought a bit about learning to read, and I think that the focus on single words may be too narrow. If I were teaching kids to read something I might try is reading stories to them, pausing at certain points to ask them to guess the next word, and then telling them the next word and writing it down for them. Reading involves context. I imagine that I could do without word lists. :)

I remember that in first grade we thought that our readers were stupid. "Look. See." Nobody talks like that. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #26 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:48 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Don't wee want are kids too rite rite?

I thought a bit about learning to read, and I think that the focus on single words may be too narrow. If I were teaching kids to read something I might try is reading stories to them, pausing at certain points to ask them to guess the next word, and then telling them the next word and writing it down for them. Reading involves context. I imagine that I could do without word lists. :)

I remember that in first grade we thought that our readers were stupid. "Look. See." Nobody talks like that. ;)


We do what our parents did and buy plenty of books for the kids rather than let them to the mercies of a "one size fits all" education system. Ditto every other subject. Context is hugely important yes, so is them wanting to write something or read something. My daughter obsessively copies out text from her books despite not being able to read yet. One day I came across a bunch of lines I couldn't recognise but it looked like text, I showed it to my wife and she recognised it as some kanji from a bag she'd given to our daughter to play with. Enthusiasm is blind. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #27 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:52 am 
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Charles Matthews wrote:
daal wrote:
For simplicity's sake, let's just look at Black to Kill type problems.


I believe "White to live" is considerably more complex, and that suggests there is something artificial about this business.



Well, the last move is always pretty straightforward, no ;-)

But seriously, if it helps for black to kill but not for white to live, wouldn't that still be a good thing?

The question for me is, will having some kind of strategic aim help choose good candidate moves? If the answer is no, then the way to solve problems is by relying on your experience. If you don't have much, get more. But while you are gathering it, wouldn't it be good to have some idea and not just randomly pick starting points?

Do we like circular arguments?

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #28 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:51 am 
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Tactical reading presumes an aim; if it fails, the aim can sometimes be modified to become more modest. Strategic reading is possible with or without aim; one can do strategic reading for the sake of finding a good aim...

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #29 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:54 pm 
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What good is reading if I don't even know which part of the board I should be playing in next?

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #30 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:00 pm 
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Fedya wrote:
What good is reading if I don't even know which part of the board I should be playing in next?


You read all parts and play in the one you can figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #31 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:26 am 
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daal wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
daal wrote:
For simplicity's sake, let's just look at Black to Kill type problems.


I believe "White to live" is considerably more complex, and that suggests there is something artificial about this business.


But seriously, if it helps for black to kill but not for white to live, wouldn't that still be a good thing?


Might be something here of the old joke about looking for the lost keys under the lamp post, because that is where the light is.

In practical play and shinogi, finding an extra half eye or weakness in the surrounding groups are both complex reading issues. There are problem sets about bridging under, I recall, which are quite tough; and any sort of shortage of liberties issues occur. These are big areas, and "combinatorial" (probably not reducible to a short list of things to try).

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #32 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:30 am 
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Charles Matthews wrote:
In practical play and shinogi, finding an extra half eye or weakness in the surrounding groups are both complex reading issues. There are problem sets about bridging under, I recall, which are quite tough; and any sort of shortage of liberties issues occur. These are big areas, and "combinatorial" (probably not reducible to a short list of things to try).


Pure curiosity: Are they tough because the stones end up in unusual patterns which make normal candidate moves for similar shapes not work? Outside of factors like reading depth etc. Interested from a "how much of high dan problems are taking the solver away from the usual shapes/patterns they are familiar with rather than just being a case of needing deeper reading" perspective. Might be a trite question.

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #33 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:08 am 
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Here is an example of life because of threats to connect, from Tsumego no Shinkenkyu by Kita Fumiko.



Variations 3 and 4 added by me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #34 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:17 am 
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I rather want to find a way to modify that problem so that white does have a way to fix both weakness, similar to this one (hope I did it correctly).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play and kill.
$$ +--------------
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | X X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . .
$$ | . . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Categorizing go problems
Post #35 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:00 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
In practical play and shinogi, finding an extra half eye or weakness in the surrounding groups are both complex reading issues. There are problem sets about bridging under, I recall, which are quite tough; and any sort of shortage of liberties issues occur. These are big areas, and "combinatorial" (probably not reducible to a short list of things to try).


Pure curiosity: Are they tough because the stones end up in unusual patterns which make normal candidate moves for similar shapes not work? Outside of factors like reading depth etc. Interested from a "how much of high dan problems are taking the solver away from the usual shapes/patterns they are familiar with rather than just being a case of needing deeper reading" perspective. Might be a trite question.


I suppose the point I may be trying to make is that computers may be better than humans in some such positions, anyway. For example, the technique to live is miai, but the key play for a double threat only shows up after you have explored two complex variations.


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