Or maybe I like to pass time by arguing. That could be it, too.

Either way, I guess I am wrong about things with this topic.

My way is not good.

I guess I genuinely feel that way, now.

_________________
be immersed

Maybe they don't think they are being fake. Maybe they think they are being polite.

To me, politeness is about being empathetic, thinking about the other person's feelings, and trying to ensure that as much as possible you are both happy. That feels awfully real to me.

I already said I was wrong. What more do you want?

Anyway, if I go back to playing the devil's advocate, again, yes, you can show empathy by being polite. Or you can be faking it, being polite only on the outside. I think both are possible. I don't like the latter behavior.

_________________
be immersed

Interesting things going on here … when one is a student of communication/semiotics, one is always “in the field”

It can be quite complicated, like a game of Go:

I can, for example, imagine having to do with somebody towards whom …

… my first feelings are: “Oh, what an a??h?le”,

… and a minute later I have already switched to “oh, they are only behaving like an a??h?le”,

… and again a minute later I realize that they are actually behaving like a person who’s been hurt a lot … in such situations I am very glad when I have managed not to simply be “authentic” but have instead contained and watched myself (and them, of course).

I have also noticed that sometimes people stop behaving like a??h?les when they relax and lose their fear. Guess this is commonplace, though — or is it not?

Cordially, Tom

_________________
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

I guess, bottom line is, you can act how you want, but some people might not like it. Just like I can post what I want, but some people might not like it.

It doesn't mean one way or another is better, inherently. But people are more likely to be my friends if I go along with their preferences.

So probably, if I am more agreeable on the forum, people will like me more.

So if I want people to like me, I guess I should go along with common opinion.

_________________
be immersed

I am baffled. How do you determine the "common opinion" here?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

(I apologise for "jumping over" a few messages and come back to a previous point of the discussion. After writing this message I realise I am more looking for a dialog with you independently of other users' input. If this is disruptive I can send this as a private message next time.)

Kirby, this thread made me think a lot but I can't really make it into a coherent opinion. My first feeling was that I deeply disagreed with you, but I also remember having thoughts similar to yours when I was living in Japan. Maybe this whole discussion relates to the way we would like to "push" or "pull" the culture in which we live.

The first reason is probably that I feel that the French/Chilean go culture suffers more from people being "too childish" than not enough. (I use "childish" here as a shortcut for "genuine, but possibly selfish and/or unempathetic"). I'm putting in this category loud talking, sour losing or gloating, etc. On the other hand, I have never felt that excessive rules prevented me from "getting across" to people (or the opposite) if I wanted to. So I guess my "optimal point" would be somewhere between Japanese and French cultures in this regard.

The second point is that I suffered and suffer from many of this "childish" flaws, and the process of realising this and trying to correct myself possibly led me to being more intolerant to these behaviours in others. In this sense, I see learning politeness (in this restricted sense) as in itself a path to learn empathy and selflessness, althought I gladly admit that it is very easy to miss the forest for the tree and the intention for the gesture, especially when these gestures are imposed to you as ends by and for themselves.

In this sense the most valuable form of politeness is not composed of fixed sentences or gestures but of attentions and intentions. A while ago a Japanese opponent on KGS said something in Japanese to me after I blundered a game to him, which I later translated as something akin to "I have no merit in the outcome". I guess that, not knowing enough English, his empathy still urge him to say something, even if it would probably not be understood. The fact that I still remember him should tell you how much I appreciated it.

Let me finish this (too) long rambling with a video that had a big effect on me. It is a chess grandmaster's and his opponent's reaction to blundering a game. In this video I grew to admire as much both opponents' reactions. Georg Meier keeps his dignity while not hiding his emotions, and Vladimir Akopian does not talk or show an emotion, in (what I see as) an effort to respect the difficult moment his opponent is living. The contrast with the behaviour of the other spectator is striking. Probably Akopian and the spectator's reactions can be called genuine (and I would even say the spectator's is probably more genuine), but even just watching the video I cannot prevent a feeling of gratitude from the maturity of Akopian's behaviour.

_________________
La victoire est un hasard, la défaite une nécessité.

I like this video, and your discussion of the game you had on KGS with the Japanese player. It also reminds me of the Foreward to Relentless, attributed to Lee Changho:
"In ancient times there were four arts which educated people sought to master. They were: music (the zither), baduk (Go), calligraphy and painting.
Among these four arts, baduk is unique in being the only one that requires a partner. No matter how skilled a master is, they cannot create a work of art unless they have a worthy adversary.
This gives baduk a special character, because even though the top players throughout history always competed fiercely to be the best, they also respected one another and often became friends."

There can be a high level of respect for your opponent and an affection for that person who has agreed to work with you to help each other master one of the four arts.

Is it remarkable that this topic (etiquette) is now top of the list in this forum, and that the next is about psychology?
Must be somehow related.