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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #41 Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:51 pm 
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illluck wrote:
What about smoking then?


Well, wholly unacceptable in a tournament by American norms, and banned from the competition area in Japanese professional go, so you have at least two votes there.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #42 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:15 am 
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Where I'm from, smoking is completely banned indoors, and I imagine most buildings where tournaments are being held would have a smoke-free policy. But if smoking is allowed within the building, and the tournament director(s) do(es) not rule against it, I would allow it.

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Post #43 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:51 am 
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An adult pisses on his pants? I think people should kindly advice him to see a doctor, but not keep him in a tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #44 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:17 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:

What about a player smelling strongly of urine because he has pissed his pants? (I've actually seen this in a tournament)


I don't want to know

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #45 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:56 am 
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It was a long game and I was entering byo yomi. How would I be able to think with a full bladder :grumpy: ? I did the only rational thing :ugeek: .

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #46 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Matti wrote:
Hsiang wrote:
The actual rulings:

Case 2
In all international playing rules, the players are required to remove the dead stones, however many, before pressing the clock. The clock may be stopped only if that player is in overtime AND there are MORE than 2 stones to capture. The problem is, none of the rules states how to penalize the player if a violation occurs. The Chinese referee in this case ruled that the violator would have 2 points taken off her score (1 stone in territory counting), 10 seconds added to her opponent's time, plus a warning that a second violation would cause a forfeiture. The logic for this decision was based on similar penalties established for other violations such as inadvertent moving of stones, ko violation, etc.

So, what do you think of these rulings?

It was ingenious to penalize with two points of score. However, if I were to invent a new penalty, I might rule that prisoners taken after pressing the clock would not count for the player who takes them and thus penalize the player with number of prisoners taken after pressing the clock, but giving no other penalties.


I do prefer adding or reducing the available time for the players . it at least has the idea there is been a correction, but it isn't on the board.

Did a rethink on case 1 "prisoner in the bowl" problem.

probably the rules also states that prisoners must be visuable for both players, putting a stone in the opponents bowl is breaks this rule. (by definition)

also why not make it difficult to put stones in the opponents bowl. (also prevents grinding stones problem)

But it also makes me wonder: how do Chinese players make an estimate of the final score. (one of the advantages of territory scoring is that there is less to count)

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #47 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:02 pm 
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On the topic of a player using smelly "Tiger Bond", here's an interesting item from the world of chess. It's from an arbiter's writeup of the 35th Chess Olympiad:

Quote:
There were some small “incidents” with the Chinese teams. Chinese players have the habit of rubbing a strong smelling balsam on their faces. Before the men’s match Russia – China I received a request from the Russian delegation that the Chinese players should not rub the balsam on their faces or, if they do so, to do it away from the board. I discussed it with the Chinese delegation and the leader of the Chinese delegation informed me that the Chinese players agreed not to use this balsam. The Chinese leader requested me to make sure that the Russian players would not speak with each other during the game.


Looks like the question was settled amicably before the games started.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #48 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Actually, when i first read the story about meditate cream, i thought about doping issue rather than the smell.
If the cream does help on thinking in Go, then is the effert similar to taking dope in other sports?
same thing with coffee and tea...

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #49 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Javaness wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:

What about a player smelling strongly of urine because he has pissed his pants? (I've actually seen this in a tournament)


I don't want to know

I was going to be mean and ask him how embarrassed he was. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #50 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:46 am 
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More important than the trivia example cases is the planning for the WMSG 2012 in Manchester. I have tried a few times to convince BGA and EGF Committee not to waste any planning time and suggested in particular that refereeing and rules must be prepared. The sooner the better; already less than two years preparation time for such an important event is little. Currently it seems that everybody is waiting for the IGF to become active. Is this apparent continued delay really necessary? Thomas, how are things proceeding? As long as nobody outside the IGF knows who will be responsible for what, nobody can become active meaningfully and yet more months will be wasted unnecessarily. In particular these things will have to be prepared:

- Reviewing, possibly revising, publishing, explaining the tournament rules.
- Reviewing, possibly revising, publishing, explaining the rules of play.
- Reviewing, possibly revising, publishing, explaining the tournament systems.
- Specifying a system for selecting (much more internationally mixed than 2008 would be appropriate), selecting, educating referees in all instances.

The earlier rules are agreed on the better referees, tournament organizers, players and spectators can understand, explain and apply them well. The previous last minute changes must not be repeated; players have a right to know what rules they are playing under well in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #51 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:24 am 
Judan

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Hsiang wrote:
How would you have ruled?


In some cases, that depends on the actually valid rulesets and tournament's arbitration context, where rules would be possibly insufficient. Needless to say, as a referee for a particular (international) tournament, I would know the valid tournament rules, rules and carry them with me all the time:)

Quote:
Case 1
Playing in an international match, a player put a captured stone into her opponent’s bowl [...] in this case, the game was played in Korea and the rules used are territory based. At the end of the game, this player lost by 0.5 point, even though everyone knew she had won by 0.5. The player requested replaying and recounting, her opponent refused. How would you rule?


If there are Korean tournament rules or tournament rules for the particular international match, I do not know them; they might alter my ruling.

My decision would be independent of the height of the score or what every kibitz "knew". What matters is whether prisoners do score at all, whether each prisoner scores the same as any other prisoner, whether prisoners may be put back to the bowl and when the opponent and / or referee intervened.

Bill has given some relevant citations from the now outdated Korean 1992 Rules of Play (I do not know the newer ones yet). More basically though, it is ultimately clear that Korean style rules of play use (Traditional) Territory Scoring, which scores all prisoners and does so equally for each of them.

Assuming that the particular tournament had a tournament rules / practice context of possible reconfirmation, the ruling becomes obvious: Apply Territory Scoring correctly, if necessary by replaying investigation of the already played game.

Quote:
Case 2
A player pressed the clock before removing a whole bunch of captured stones from the board. The opponent protested. How would you rule?


"pressing the clock" appears to mean "shifting the running time towards the opponent". If so, this is impossible, of course.

"a whole bunch" is a bit imprecise but apears to exceed the typical specific tournament rules, which might say something like "at least 2" or "at least 3" or "at least 4".

So under these circumstances, the player's action is illegal / void and is to be at least corrected (opponent gets back his lost time) and then proceeded normally and might, depending on the tournament (rules) context, possibly also include some penalty. (E.g., the EGF General Tournament Rules implicitly suggest first a warning, then (second minor infringement asserted by a referee by the same player during the same game) default loss.

Quote:
Case 3
A player uses a medicated cream to keep herself refreshed (say, the “Tiger Bond”), which has a strong scent but is commonly used in some countries. Her opponent finds the smell to be very annoying. How do you rule when a protest is lodged? If you rule that the medication should be removed, how do you handle the time taken to remove the medication? And what if the medication is needed for injury (for example scented, medicated, tapes used for muscle cramps); would you rule differently?


A ruling must depend first of all on whether it is indeed prescribed / obviously needed medication. Let me simplify by disregarding extreme side considerations:

1) Prescription: Allowed.

2) No prescription: Such a kind of "medication" should be done in the rest room because thereby the opponent's thinking is not disturbed unnecessarily. Go is a mental skill competition - not an outbeat by greater annoyance competition.

Quote:
Case 4
In a lopsided international match, the stronger player uses intimidation to try to get her opponent to resign. At first, she played loud and fast, slapping stones onto the board immediately after each of her opponent’s move; then she started complaining to spectators, “why hasn’t my opponent resigned”! When the referee interceded and warned her, the talking stopped, but the rude playing continued. Her opponent protested, the strong player insisted she did nothing wrong. How would you rule?


Assuming reasonable tournament rules.

Your description suggests that what the player did was meant to disturb the opponent's concentration and even permanently.

Go is a mental skill competition - not an outbeat by greater annoyance competition. Therefore (see above).

However, this case is harsher: the player's talk to kibitzes must also be prohibited.

Penalties? Assuming it to have been a subtle acceleration of annoyance and a tournament rules context similar to EGF GTR, I would first issue a warning and, when the opponent calls the referee a second time and facts are established, issue a default loss to the player.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #52 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:49 am 
Judan

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Hsiang wrote:
So, what do you think of these rulings?


Quote:
Case 1
The chief referee changed the initial ruling,


In some jurisdictions (like EGF), the second instance is not the chief referee but an Appeals Committee.

Quote:
I personally do not agree with the chief referee


I neither.

Quote:
Case 2
In all international playing rules, the players are required to remove the dead stones, however many, before pressing the clock.


No. E.g., the EGF GTR prescribe it to be done on one's own time or - given enough stones - on neutralized time. This is different from saying "before pressing the clock"; for neutralization, it must be activated on the clock.

Quote:
The clock may be stopped only if that player is in overtime AND there are MORE than 2 stones to capture.


Different tournament rulesets have different and some even changed. I have seen the numbers 2, 3 or 4 and I have seen a) always, b) only in overtime, c) in or shortly before overtime. Mostly, the player may choose whether to let his time running or neutralize the clock.

Quote:
The problem is, none of the rules states how to penalize the player if a violation occurs.


Rather some tournament rulesets suggest unspecific penalties. See e.g. §8 here:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/egfgtr.html

Quote:
The Chinese referee in this case ruled that the violator would have 2 points taken off her score


Such a points penalty might be more popular in Taiwan / Ing tournaments / possibly China. In Europe time penalties are more popular.

Quote:
a warning that a second violation would cause a forfeiture.


Good referee, who explains well to the player.

Quote:
The logic for this decision was based on similar penalties established for other violations


Good.

Quote:
This case has led to the establishment of a “code of conduct” with real teeth in enforcement. The code will now be sent to all international players starting 2011.


Is it available in English? For which tournaments is it meant?

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #53 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:52 am 
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Hsiang wrote:
"At the end of the game, B took the last dame. Yet the count showed W with a 0.5 point win. Everyone in the room immediately knew the score was wrong..."

Do you know why? [...] an amateur 5d up would know this without hesitation


You exaggerate. Not every 5d+ has studied the parity theory available since the late 90ies.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #54 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:38 am 
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Hsiang wrote:
xed_over wrote:
... in none of these examples do I see a need for the referee to be at least a strong amateur or better :)

You think so? :) Let's try this. The first case took place in an international pro tournament and was well publicized. The reporter, in her original story, stated that "At the end of the game, B took the last dame. Yet the count showed W with a 0.5 point win. Everyone in the room immediately knew the score was wrong..."

Do you know why?

This is not something that only strong players would know, but I dare say the absolute majority of our kyu friends would have no idea what the reporter was talking about. Similarly, an amateur 5d up would know this without hesitation...


This riddle keeps bugging me.

There is an odd number of intersections on a goban.
There was an odd number of stones played (Black first and last move).

If nothing out of the ordinary happened (misbehaving sekis etc,) there should be

territory scoring:
an even number of total points
an even difference between player scores

So White winning with 0.5 seems completely possible with komi 6.5 (though impossible with komi 5.5).

area scoring:
an odd number of total points
an odd difference between player scores

So White winning with 0.5 seems completely possible again with komi 7.5.

What is the solution to this?

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Post #55 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:41 am 
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tapir wrote:
Hsiang wrote:
xed_over wrote:
... in none of these examples do I see a need for the referee to be at least a strong amateur or better :)

You think so? :) Let's try this. The first case took place in an international pro tournament and was well publicized. The reporter, in her original story, stated that "At the end of the game, B took the last dame. Yet the count showed W with a 0.5 point win. Everyone in the room immediately knew the score was wrong..."

Do you know why?

This is not something that only strong players would know, but I dare say the absolute majority of our kyu friends would have no idea what the reporter was talking about. Similarly, an amateur 5d up would know this without hesitation...


This riddle keeps bugging me.

There is an odd number of intersections on a goban.
There was an odd number of stones played (Black first and last move).

If nothing out of the ordinary happened (misbehaving sekis etc,) there should be

territory scoring:
an even number of total points
an even difference between player scores

So White winning with 0.5 seems completely possible with komi 6.5 (though impossible with komi 5.5).

area scoring:
an odd number of total points
an odd difference between player scores

So White winning with 0.5 seems completely possible again with komi 7.5.

What is the solution to this?


I believe Thomas got one aspect of the fact reversed -- it was W who took the last dame. See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1314 for a description of the incident.

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Post #56 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:11 pm 
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hiyayang wrote:

I believe Thomas got one aspect of the fact reversed -- it was W who took the last dame. See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1314 for a description of the incident.

Oh, yes. I kept thinking 3-3/4 Chinese komi (equivalent to 7.5 komi in territory counting). Thanks for pointing it out.

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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #57 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Here is a link to my mathematical komi and dame parity proofs of 1997:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... ode=source


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 Post subject: Re: So you want to be an international Go referee...
Post #58 Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Hsiang wrote:
hiyayang wrote:

I believe Thomas got one aspect of the fact reversed -- it was W who took the last dame. See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1314 for a description of the incident.

Oh, yes. I kept thinking 3-3/4 Chinese komi (equivalent to 7.5 komi in territory counting). Thanks for pointing it out.

hahaha... Oh good. Then I haven't lost my chance at becoming a kyu level referee :)
Because I kept trying to work out the mathematics of B playing last such that W winning by 0.5 would be wrong.

But admittedly, I didn't know enough to question the validity of the test :(

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