hyperpape wrote:

A long ladder
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B A long ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is something that has puzzled me for a long time. In Lessons In The Fundamentals Of Go, Kageyama recommends reading out ladders, and not taking shortcuts. I have taken the advice to heart, but find it hard to this day.
Did Kageyama say it was going to be easy?

I take this kind of advice not to be about reading ladders per se, but about developing your visualization skills.
Quote:
One thing that puzzles me is what it's like reading out a ladder. Do you see the stones on the board?
Seldom, without peyote.
Quote:
Or do you look at spots on the board with a sort of "White, Black, White, Black, White, Black..." series in your head?
Gack!
Quote:
Or something different?
I cheat. Life is short.


A shorter ladder
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B A shorter ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 2 3 W . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I often use macelee's trick of projecting the ladder across the board. Sometimes, like here, I use the trick of projecting the

stone across the board, to the phantom

stone. (I don't actually read the ladder out to

or beyond. It's something I know.)
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I find that I can only see the stones for very short ladders, after which they get fuzzy.
Then, as a visualization exercise, may I suggest reading to that limit, and work on clarifying the fuzzy image. I am assuming, OC, that the point is to improve your visualization, not necessarily to read the ladder out.
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As a result, I find long ladders, spiral ladders and so on extremely hard and slow to read. I'm especially prone to having to start over when I reach a bend or an opposing stone. Even if I haven't misplaced my series of moves, which is easy to do when you're just moving your eyes and saying "White, Black...", I may not have a clear picture of which spaces are liberties.
You have identified the hard parts.
Quote:
Am I doing this wrong?
Everybody faces those hard parts. Even pros occasionally misread ladders. I think that John Tromp showed that the intrinsic difficulty of reading ladders is on the same order as solving go.
Moi, I have worked a bit on the hard parts, otherwise using macelee's projection trick. As a result, when I was reading a recent commentary my spidey sense tingled and I thought, That stone doesn't look like a ladder breaker to me. Then I used the projection trick and read out the hard part. It was pretty easy at that point. Here is my post about that.
viewtopic.php?p=196360#p196360In the spirit of things, I thought I would try my hand at the following problem, even though there are a number of hard parts.


Can Black capture?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
First, I used the projection trick, reaching the first hard part.

Can Black capture?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
BTW, I did not actually visualize the

stones, but I know that they are there, and I can reconstruct them if need be.
I noticed that White had two liberties. Maybe I should try something else?

Can Black capture?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . . W O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W B X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Three liberties! That's even worse.

Then I remembered that it was Black's turn at the previous point. So we're still OK.

Can Black capture?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X B O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . # O W O W B . |
$$ | X . . , . . O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O . . . X O X . . 1 O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

quickly followed, leading to this position with White to play. I made a quick check that the

stone had enough liberties, then continued on.
Edit: Why did I check for liberties? Obviously in some sense I foresaw that it would need a liberty. So I was looking ahead in a way, but I formed no conscious image. The unconscious is a wonderful thing!

Can Black capture?
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Can Black capture?
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . |
$$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . |
$$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X |
$$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X |
$$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X |
$$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Wait! Where have we seen this shape before? On the other side. Only now there are no hard parts left. We're done.
