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Offline Alguien
 Post subject: Out of stones
Post #1 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:42 pm 
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This must be a silly question but, what happens in a real game if you spend all your stones? Do you pick some from the captured ones and note them somehow for later counting?
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Offline quantumf
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #2 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:48 pm 
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Most common technique is prisoner swaps - put 10 of my prisoners in your bowl and 10 of your prisoners in my bowl. Often stones run out because of lengthy ko battles, so both players have lots of prisoners.

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Offline karaklis
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #3 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Like in real life: exchange of prisoners

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #4 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Using area scoring, prisoners are irrelevant (you'll see many players just throwing prisoners back into bowls with NZ/Chinese rules, which is arguably annoying).

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Offline clemi
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #5 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:59 am 
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Arguably annoying ? Just to know, what are the cons according to you ?
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #6 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:08 am 
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Some people prefer to use Japanese style counting during the game, so you may want to count prisoners.

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Offline Simba
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #7 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:42 am 
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Loons wrote:
Some people prefer to use Japanese style counting during the game, so you may want to count prisoners.


Also it's pretty off-putting; as someone who is very used to Japanese counting, it'd really break my concentration for my opponent to put prisoners back in their bowl as a sort of "wha, that's not meant to happen..." just instinctively :) .
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #8 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:37 am 
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Just discretely reach into the bowl belonging to the player next to you. :twisted:
( Prior to doing this, you should ascertain that they are the proper color )

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Offline gowan
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #9 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:52 am 
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This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #10 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:59 am 
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gowan wrote:
This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones.

I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures.

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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #11 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:24 pm 
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jts wrote:
gowan wrote:
This isn't a totally trivial matter. Games more than 400 moves long are not out of the question and in such a game it might happen that even exchange of prisoners doesn't do the job. Also, if you are using Ing equipment, borrowing stones from another set might mess up the counting; at the least you'd have to give each player the same number of extra stones.

I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures.

today's new math is still hard for some people :)
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #12 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:52 pm 
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jts wrote:
I'm not positive this is true. A full set should have 361 stones. At the point where one player runs out of stones completely (all 180 of his stones are on the board), all the remaining dame should be the result of captures.

not true if there is a long ko.
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Offline Sverre
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #13 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:00 pm 
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speedchase wrote:
not true if there is a long ko.


A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again.

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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #14 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Sverre wrote:

A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again.

good point. what about a snap-back?
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Offline oren
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #15 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:14 pm 
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I think if you get to the point where prisoner exchange fails and you started with 181/180 stones, then someone should be resigning...

At the go club, not all the bowls are completely full so borrowing from other bowls when you do run out is common enough.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #16 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:35 pm 
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speedchase wrote:
Sverre wrote:

A long ko where only one of the players is making captures? If both players capture stones then prisoner exchange is possible again.

good point. what about a snap-back?

What about it?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #17 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:04 pm 
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oren wrote:
I think if you get to the point where prisoner exchange fails and you started with 181/180 stones, then someone should be resigning...

One side could have lots of dead stones on the board, while the other could have lots of dead stones in the lid.

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Offline oren
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #18 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
One side could have lots of dead stones on the board, while the other could have lots of dead stones in the lid.


Yes, but it would be very hard to construct with 181 black and 180 white stones in use.
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Offline mrnoob
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #19 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:30 pm 
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I've heard of this happening once in a professional tournament in Japan. One of the recorders had to run to get more stones from a different room; apparently, you can still lose by time, and both players were in byo yomi.

This was like long before I was born though; I heard it from my teacher.

At the club, we usually exchange prisoners, but it doesn't happen much.
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Offline tundra
 Post subject: Re: Out of stones
Post #20 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Well, in theory something bizarre like this seki is possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$---------------------
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|X.OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$|.XOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|
$$---------------------[/go]

Black: 2 stones
White: 356 stones

But getting back back to reality, I'd be curious to know if a real-life tournament using Ing rules has ever had a problem with the 180 stone supply. For other rulesets, I think the assumption, possibly unstated, is that each player has an unlimited number of stones. So finding extra stones is more of a practical problem, rather than a rules problem.

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