It is currently Thu May 08, 2025 2:19 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #101 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:48 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 706
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 251
GD Posts: 846
Kirby wrote:
This idea kind of makes sense, but I wonder about efficiency. For example, is it possible that you get more bang for your buck studying tsumego for an hour than studying joseki for the same time?

If so, it would still be ideal to study everything wothout restriction, but given a finite amount of time to study in life, why not focus on areas that are more efficient for helping you to achieve your goals (eg. getting stronger)?


IMHO, this is the $100,000 question. It's hard because the answer almost certainly depends on the individual. What works for a 10-year-old insei who is already high dan amateur strength may not work (or even be possible) for a 50 year-old 10 kyu with a demanding job.

In software performance, you fix the biggest bottlenecks first. Then, you reach the stage of death by 1000 cuts because everything has close the same effect. Then you sigh, bite the bullet and re-architect. What is the equivalent in go? Emptying the cup as the Bruce Lee quote suggests? I'm not sure.

I read something---I think in one of John Fairbairn's books---that Kitani was often a slow player because he would evaluate the worst moves first, then systematically work up to the better ones. This seems kind of unnatural, but it might be the right medicine for some players. Think about it. If solving a constrained go problem, does it matter which variations you read first if you are determined to evaluate exhaustively? No. Blitz teaches us to go the other direction and pick the best looking move that we haven't had time to refute. But maybe this conditioning is damaging if taken to the extreme. Kitani's approach may seem crazy, but there may be something useful there.

For me, I think the answer is not on the board. It is in my head. What is going on in my head? Is it wrong thinking? Is it inefficient thinking? Is there a skill, which, through practice, can be refined to a higher degree and if so, how and with what threshold of effort? Am I stopping 5% before I reach a beneficial level of effort?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #102 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:52 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
...

A major problem with focusing your study on what you need to most, or where you are weak, is how do you know? Very often in the Big Question Mark section on Sensei's Library someone will ask, What do I do in this situation? Very often the answer is, Don't get into that situation. ;) The important errors came earlier. Left to their own devices, the players who ask those questions would study the wrong things, because they do not know where their problems lie.
...


This makes sense - it's likely that I don't know where my problems lie. As a side note, do you (or anyone else) have an idea where my problems lie?

Studying everything is certainly a solution to addressing any of your problems, but perhaps some insight can be gained from a third-party perspective.

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #103 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:06 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Kirby wrote:
This makes sense - it's likely that I don't know where my problems lie. As a side note, do you (or anyone else) have an idea where my problems lie?


That's what a teacher is useful for.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #104 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:37 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
oren wrote:
Kirby wrote:
This makes sense - it's likely that I don't know where my problems lie. As a side note, do you (or anyone else) have an idea where my problems lie?


That's what a teacher is useful for.


I suppose so! I was hoping to get some free advice, since I'm pretty open with my games around here. Maybe that's a bit too greedy of me :mrgreen:

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #105 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:30 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Kirby wrote:
This makes sense - it's likely that I don't know where my problems lie. As a side note, do you (or anyone else) have an idea where my problems lie?

Studying everything is certainly a solution to addressing any of your problems, but perhaps some insight can be gained from a third-party perspective.


Although I'm in no position to teach you, I reviewed the last game you posted in your study journal.
When I had to summarize my points into one or two focus areas, I'd say:
  • 1. Judgement of the whole board. This is arguably a pretty worthless advice in itself but in my opinion you could have chosen a better whole-board-suited Joseki in the bottom left corner and I woudn't judge the outcome of the variation you gave for it that badly. That Q10 was missed for so long seems to be an underappreciation of the whole board as well. Move :w44: falls into the same category, I think.
    I always recommend replaying professional games to get a feel for their judgment and constant reviews by preferably stronger players of your lost games.
  • 2. Follow-Ups / Multi-Purpose-Moves. Moves like :w34: , :w36: , :w40: , :w42: , :w68: seem to me lacking a follow-up and often serve only one purpose.
    A useful question to ask is: When I don't play here, will my opponent immediately seize the initiative or will he play somewhere else (bigger/more urgent points)?
    Another recommendation would be - again - to replay professional games and solving Tesuji problems can also help because you will learn moves which threaten or exploit weaknesses in certain shapes and thus you can try to put your opponent into such situations with your moves. Of course following a plan with your moves is helpful as well but since I'm mostly lacking the skill to develop a plan in the first place, I can add no more to that : )

Then again, my review could be a total mess with very wrong comments showing that it's rather me who lacks judgement of the whole board. Since nobody called me out until now, I though it won't be too bold to post this : )

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go


This post by SoDesuNe was liked by: Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #106 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:45 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Thanks, SoDesuNe. That's the type of thing I was looking for.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #107 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:42 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 447
Liked others: 137
Was liked: 68
Rank: kgs 5kyu
KGS: Unusedname
snorri wrote:
I read something---I think in one of John Fairbairn's books---that Kitani was often a slow player because he would evaluate the worst moves first, then systematically work up to the better ones.


Ahaha this is awesome.

>Hmm this move isn't even on the right side of the board.
>Hmm this move tries to escape but will obviously be cut off
>Hmm this move gives me more liberties but I will be cut off.
>Hmm this move escapes either this way or this way but it is gote. <--- (A big improvement is when you pass this move)
>Hmm this move escapes either this way or this way and threatens to create a weak group, but he can ignore to play this forcing move.
>Hmm this move escapes and threatens to kill, he must defend himself in gote or his group will die.
>Hmm this move is on the wrong side of the board but it is forcing enough for him to tell me which side he wants to develop and therefore which side I should escape. (edit)


I don't see why a pro would do this, but it seems like a great learning exercise. (But I suppose we're all constantly learning)

I really like this method.

If you start at the "top" and start going down it's easy to forget to look above.
Also you get a full understanding of what each move actually does. And can fully appreciate each move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A 1 Dan's Half Understanding of Fundamentals
Post #108 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:21 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 706
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 251
GD Posts: 846
Unusedname wrote:
snorri wrote:
I read something---I think in one of John Fairbairn's books---that Kitani was often a slow player because he would evaluate the worst moves first, then systematically work up to the better ones.


Ahaha this is awesome.

>Hmm this move isn't even on the right side of the board.


I think he may have applied this in more constrained, readable positions, but I could be wrong. I would love more insight into it.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group