Will someone play the killing game with me?

DrStraw · **#121**

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Kirby · **#122**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O W . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X . . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · **#123**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X B . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#124**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X W . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#125**

Kirby · **#126**

I misread. I considered the following variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . 0 9 O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . 8 O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . 6 X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . 5 X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 2 1 O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . 7 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O O X 6 . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . X O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | 2 1 X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | 3 X X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . O X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . O O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . O X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . X . . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Seemed OK.

Also this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . 4 X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . 5 6 8 O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . 1 O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . 2 X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | 3 . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . O X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | 5 . O X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 4 X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Seemed interesting.

But of course, black can respond this way after the initial cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . 4 X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

to which, I mistakenly read this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . 7 O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . 9 X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . 4 X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . 5 0 . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 6 X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . O O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . O X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . 1 X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . X X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . O X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | 2 O X . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

which seemed promising. But...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . 7 O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . 8 X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . 4 X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . 3 X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Foils my plans.

So, since I have no coherent plan for making life now, I will resign. It's unlikely that DrStraw will make a mistake in killing me, but even if he did, it would not be satisfying nor educational - just lucky, perhaps.

And since I started this thread to try to get better at this, I don't want to win that way anyway.

Perhaps one of the most naive things I did was when I played out the ladder - I just assumed he'd play along, which seemed promising for eye-shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O . O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

I thought he might scoff at me and play out the ladder a few moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O . O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O 1 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

to which, I felt that the atari was promising:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O . O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . 1 X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

It threatens the second eye, so he must play to stop it, and then I would have chance of making better eyeshape, maybe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O . O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . 1 X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . 2 O 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

If black protects his stone on the bottom, this was nice:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O . O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . 1 X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . 2 O 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . 4 X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Though in retrospect, he'd probably cut me off:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O 7 O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X 6 . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O 8 1 X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . 2 O 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . 4 X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

But there still might be some chance, I guess - still hard for me, perhaps.

On the other hand, if he played to protect this area, of course I could get close to making second eye, and maybe some forcing moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O 4 O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . 1 X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . 2 O 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . 6 5 X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, it was all somewhat naive, because I was somewhat at a loss at that point, and thought that playing out the ladder seemed cool and creative, so I did it.

But it turns out it didn't work. I resign.

In any case, I enjoyed the game. Thank you, DrStraw, for playing against me.

I wouldn't mind trying again sometime, but I feel that I didn't get that much in terms of improvement from this game - I still made heavy shapes, and performed similarly to how I would in another game. I suppose the practice was good.

Thanks again.

Bill Spight · **#127**

Sonoda 9p has a theory about the importance of the diagonal relationship for sabaki and shinogi. There are only two kinds of diagonally related points on the board, like the colors of a checkerboard. In the following diagram I have highlighted the White stones with one kind of diagonal relationship at the end of play. FWIW.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . W X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . W X C X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . W X . . . X . . X O W . . . X . | $$ | . . W X X O X . . . W O X X X . W . . | $$ | . . X W O X X . O W X X X W . . . X . | $$ | . . X X W O X O X X W X W . . X X . . | $$ | . . X W a W X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O W . . . X O W O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X W O W O . . X O W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . X W . W . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X W . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

White sacrificed a stone at :ec:

.

Note that it was stones of this kind that mainly formed the eye at "a".

Note also that most of Kirby's plays were of this kind.

In the next diagram I highlight Black's plays of the same ilk.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . W X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . W X C X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . W X . . . X . . B O W . . . B . | $$ | . . W X B O B . . . W O B X B . W . . | $$ | . . X W O B X . O W X B X W . . . B . | $$ | . . X X W O B O B X W X W . . X X . . | $$ | . . X W a W X B X B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O W . . . B O W O B X B . . . . | $$ | . . X B X W O W O . . B O W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . X W . W . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B X . O B O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X W . B X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Note that most of Black's plays were of that kind, as well. That fits with Sonoda's theory, since the plays to prevent the formation of a one point eye will often be of the same kind of diagonal relationship of the stones that would form the eye.

Edited to show DrStraw's final response in the second diagram. Now each player has made the same number of plays.

DrStraw · **#128**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$W $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X O O . . . X . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O O X X X . O . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . X . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O X O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#129**

Kirby wrote:

In any case, I enjoyed the game. Thank you, DrStraw, for playing against me.

Thanks to both of you for an interesting game.

Kirby wrote:

I wouldn't mind trying again sometime, but I feel that I didn't get that much in terms of improvement from this game - I still made heavy shapes, and performed similarly to how I would in another game. I suppose the practice was good.

I had the feeling from the start that you had almost no chance of winning, because you indicated that making life was a problem area for you, and because of the rank difference between you and DrStraw. Your play was somewhat heavy, but I suspect that that is typical for amateur play in this game. As for your sense that you did not learn much from the game, that is in line with the idea that the best learning tasks are those with a 50-50 chance of success.

Against DrStraw, perhaps 13 stones would have made a closer and more instructive game.

DrStraw · **#130**

I did not realize you had resigned until Bill just posted his comments. Your post was rather long to read this early in the morning.

Thanks for the game. It was fun although, as Bill says, perhaps not as instructive as it could have been. Perhaps it would be interesting to try it with the colors reversed.

Kirby · **#131**

DrStraw wrote:

Thanks for the game. It was fun although, as Bill says, perhaps not as instructive as it could have been. Perhaps it would be interesting to try it with the colors reversed.

Maybe another time. I don't think I learned that much, so probably I will stick with games on KGS for now. As Bill says, we could try a different handicap, but from my experiences with Magicwand, I don't see that going in a good direction for either my pride or learning.

Perhaps someone else is interested.

Thanks for the game and we did play, and for accommodating my request.

Uberdude · **#132**

I think Kirby actually got quite close, could I take over from him a few moves back and continue playing, if DrStraw is willing (or someone else come in for him too, tag-team style)? But as a general comment I would say Kirby did best when he started playing tenuki more, if it's a simple game of spot the shape point DrStraw will find it, if the position is less clear and spread out and interacting there can be multiple shape points so it's harder.

Kirby · **#133**

Uberdude wrote:

I think Kirby actually got quite close, could I take over from him a few moves back and continue playing, if DrStraw is willing (or someone else come in for him too, tag-team style)?

It'd be interesting to see :-)

tj86430 · **#134**

Uberdude wrote:

could I take over from him a few moves back and continue playing, if DrStraw is willing

Please accept, DrStraw

DrStraw · **#135**

It's Kirby's game. He has to approve. I'm willing.

Kirby · **#136**

I don't mind at all. Maybe if Uberdude comes closer to living, then it will actually be a bit educational to me as to where I could have gone better.

Uberdude · **#137**

Ok, so I'd like to try this connection. Kirby played tenuki to the top right and DrStraw cut here which fixed a lot of bad aji, so let's see what I can do with it...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O W O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · **#138**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O O O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, you don't give me a lot of options at this point.

jeromie · **#139**

This thread just keeps on giving! Thank you to the participants: this is fun to watch.

Uberdude · **#140**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O X . . . O . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X . O O X X X O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X O X X O O O . . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . O X X X X O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . X O O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O O O O . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . X . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

A diagonal relationship for Bill.

Will someone play the killing game with me?

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