It's the level of beating that comes into play. The pro will win, that's almost for sure. He just isn't likely to play for the largest margin.

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Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net

Be great if go had something like this (maybe it does).

Thankfully Josh is also a fan of such games:

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"Tsumegos are for reading power and Tesujis for knowing which moves to read"

I was actually looking for games where pros paly vs weak amateur dans or somewhere around that level. I know that there are a lot of amateurs who are strong as pros, but to me this is same as pro vs amateur.

Why I am looking for these games is that I want to see how pros handle some common situations, mistakes, and so on. How they react to over and under plays.

The Cho Hunhyun series are AMAZING!!!

He plays so calmly, his moves are so simple yet ultra effective. I am at that level where I can see the reasoning behind moves and how he plays is really amazing to me, but the most amazing thing is how the moves look so natural and right. I only wonder why I can't play moves like that, I mean they seem so simple and natural, yet I always play some stupid, unnecessary moves and make things go bad.

I would sell my soul to the devil just so that I could play like that, these series are both euphoric and depressive in the same time, cause I know this is simply something a mere mortal like myself can not achieve.

Yeah, thats the book I was referring to, its a great read.







Well, I guess you could see it that way, still, I believe every time someone goes easy in a game a learning opportunity is lost.



Looking back I might have not made myself clear. I wasn't really looking for amateurs loosing for entertainment, but mostly for situations like: "Here the amateur made a mistake, here is the proper way to punish it", pretty much what Krama describes.

That would be an interesting book - sadly I'm not aware of such a book.

Though, going back to my Tygem suggestion, I think there is an account that started from 18k and has a perfect record (202 wins, 0 losses) to 9d. Might be interesting to look at the games along the way I don't have Tygem on my computer at the moment, but I think the account name is "雁".

One of the best sources of pro-ama even games where the pros pulled no punches would be IGS from the period around 1999 when the pros first discovered online Go. At the time the highest rank you could choose yourself was 4d so all the greats started there and worked their way up while simulaneously pushing the rest of us down. I have a few hundred games saved by the likes of Cigar, jiin, Soft, Zhaoyun, posh, etc. There were various discussions on rgg as to who was who.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I just noticed, that Cho Hun Hyun loses all of the handicap games and ties one. For instance he loses the H6 game against a 6k by 5 points (lol). The victory margins are 1 point, 3 points, 5 points, resignation, 3 points, and a tie.

I guess this makes sense since this program is about recognizing people who are doing good things in Korea (and also play baduk), so there is not much point to beating them down. It's interesting to see his "respectful handicap" playstyle, very light, shapely, and understandable, without any bloodlust, heart-attack inducing plays, or "shaking the opponent".

Not sure if anybody hass already posted this but there's How to Play Against the Stronger Player. Volume 2 is a series of commented handicap games against amateurs (4 to 9 stones).

Have you ever asked yourself this question in any field other than Go ?

Have you looked at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NLXtB9AMJo

Nick Sibicky (4 dan, but sandbagging as a 1 dan) against a 1 dan, in which Sibicky records a running monolog during the game (a rational for playing down). While post game analysis is interesting, I found his running thought process concerning what move is anticipated from the opponent and how he can punish "unnatural" deviations from the direction of play extremely useful and interesting. But then I am a beginner, and I probably would not understand the extra nuances in a game between an amateur dan and a pro--especially when the emphasis is on analyzing a bewildering array of long variations.

No not really, but I don't see why this would be relevant.

Because it may provide some context. To yourself, and to this discussion.

These don't have commentary but:

1) Last year Lee Sedol played a jubango against the new American pros (who are essentially amateurs), the match was stopped after Lee won 5 straight games if I remember correctly, some of the games are even and some are at 2 stones. The sgfs are in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7750

2) The Fujitsu cup, back when it was running, had amateurs from the Americas and Europe play in the first round, often against strong 9d players. Because it was a big tournament, the pros certainly wouldn't risk losing to them (I don't know if an amateur ever made it past the first round?). For example here's Jiang Weijie against Fernand Aguilar (need to log in to go4go).

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/26827

I am sorry, I see that you are trying to start a philosophical discussion here, which I am bad at. I simply don't understand stuff that you are trying to say unless if you give me examples or use logic.

How about internet-sarcasm?

Look at this pianist:


Why can't I, who has devoted half an hour each Wednesday to practise the piano for about a year and even read "Chopin etudes for dummies!", why can't I play like that?

It simply eludes me.

I think it was in the Fujitsu Cup that Aguilar actually defeated two 9p players in even games in the tournament.

Around 25 years ago some strong Chinese pros were touring the USA playing simultaneous teaching games. Jiang Zhuju (Jujo) was one of the pros, then 8p but fresh from defeating five Japanese top players in a row in the China-Japan Super Go. He announced that the proper handicap between pros 5p and up and amateurs was 9 stones minus one stone for every dan rank of the amateur. So a 1d would take 8 stones, a 6d 3 stones, etc. He managed to defend those handicaps in simultaneous play. Another point: this was at a time when there was less rank inflation.

Amateurs generally really don't have a clear idea of how strong top pros are. Quite a few years ago Kobayashi Koichi, then arguably the top pro player in Japan, played a series of games with 1p players sponsored by Igo Club magazine. There was one-game kadoban, no komi, so each game changed the handicap by one stone. The 1p players started off playing just black but Kobayashi managed to force them down to 3 stones before the series ended.

Examples: Olympic atheletes, top professional musicians (see leichtloeslich's video clip), Wimbledon tennis players,
professional Formula-1 drivers, master carpenters, surgeons, professional fishermen, commercial plane pilots,
Swiss watch makers, deep sea divers, chemical engineers, architects, opera singers, etc. (The list goes on and on.)

It's very difficult, almost impossible, to imagine that this is the first time ever in your life
you've noticed that some other people possess knowledge and skills that are far superior to yours in certain areas.
Or have you ?

Follow-up question (perhaps the heart of the matter):
would it surprise you that professional Go players
would fit into the above list ?

Ed Lee: literal minded much? (And my friends would tell you that it's pretty remarkable to have me call someone literal minded...)

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Occupy Babel!

Hi hyperpape. "Literalist." Please take a number.

EdLee, yes professional go players do fall into that category.

Are you all trying to say that I expect this extreme results without really working hard?

I think of it as a hobby and spend 10 hours per week playing with it, pros think of it as their job and spend 10 hours per day working on go?