What does "natural" mean in go?

dfan · **#21**

Uberdude · **#22**

No one move strikes me as particularly obvious or natural here. If white's previous move was the o13 jump, expecting/hoping for black to answer at q/p12 but instead black tneukid then it could be natural to play q12, but with black strong on both sides it's not so severe and black could ignore again or even cut it. e18/f18 looks quite hot to me, as black I'd quite like to get in some kikashi there so j17 can build a little eyespace, so as white f18 is big, though with open at j17 not overly so. k15 is also a nice point, but is it a tad overconcentrated; so maybe k13?. Other points to consider are c8 (but does it work with white c14 rather than c13?), k2 is a large endgame for later, could reduce the moyo in m7 vicinity (but with k2 it's not so big), also q2 to think about. Or there's ideas like e9 or e11 or d11 erasing that left group from above and preparing stones to attack the top middle weak black group. Given Knotwilg's description I expected some obvious book move with few alternatives but I don't see it.

Bill Spight · **#23**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A "natural" human play is the boshi to attack the weak Black group. But Black has :b2:

in reply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So maybe

, which is AlphaGo/Go Seigen style (the high shoulder hit)?

Knotwilg · **#24**

I'll hide my answer for those who want to think about it some more, but for dfan, jlt, bill and uberdude:

What is natural for one is not for the other, hence this example. In my case, a weak group surrounded like this is screaming to be capped like Bill and dfan suggested. However, his move is not on Lizzie's list. Why not?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well Bill had it right: there is an obvious answer for Black, making good shape, reducing WHite's strength (and potential territory):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Why the cap is not that interesting $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b a . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . 3 O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 4 X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . c . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this sequence, :w1:

is oddly placed. Next White 'a' becomes urgent, or Black will easily settle with 'b'. Later, Black may play 'c' to further neutralize and weaken White's wall, which had been constructed at the expense of Black corner territory

So what does LZ like?

Bill suggested a shoulder hit and dfan suggested capping the bottom. Combining these ideas, indeed LZ has it on her mind to reduce the moyo like this, but she treats it as incidental, before playing the actual move she likes most.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Bots plat shoulder hits? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X 2 4 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jlt suggested the invasion and that too is on LZ's mind, with this follow-up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Invasion? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe Lizzie dismisses it because this leads to more turmoil, while White is ahead and should play a simple move.

Two proverbs come to the rescue:
1) Make territory while attacking
2) the enemy's key point is your own

I had already learnt from the bots that attacking from above, forcing to live, and get central influence as a result, is not their preferred mode of operations. The resulting influence is not that valuable in the bots' eyes, while the forced life goes at the expense of territory and aji. Rather, the bots like to attack sideways and make territory. These observations, combined with Black's answer to the cap, lead us to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Make territory while attacking $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 2 1 3 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . a X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is LZ's preferred move. Playing :w3:

immediately is the more passive version of the same idea. Uberdude called it "a nice point but a tad overconcentrated" - seems like his intuition is well developed, whether or not by studying with LZ.

It's very counterintuitive to me, because instead of attacking the weak group wholesale, I'm allowing that group to sacrifice a part and build influence by connecting at 'a'. However, if Black does that, White can set up a splitting attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Splitting attack $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . 5 O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . X O O . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 1 X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

splits and Black has to make life with :b3:

and

, strengthening White's corner and not affecting the top group, which had strengthened herself to start with. Next White' attack at :w6:

is now much more purposeful.

Incidentally, Uberdude called out e18/f18 as hot and again LZ is on his side. She has it on her mind in the original position, and after having played the suggested moves, e18/f18 indeed becomes the best move very soon for either player. Well done ubderdude!

Finally, both Bill and Uberdude suggested the shoulder hit attack. How does Lizzie see the continuation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Shoulder hit attack $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . 6 O . b . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X 2 4 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 0 1 3 5 . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Blocking leads to another variation, which LZ considers good for Black, so White backs off with :w2:

After Black 10, White jumps at 'a' and Black next moves in with 'b'. No one will be hurt, but White's territory goes to waste here, which LZ doesn't like.

Bill Spight · **#25**

FWIW:

FWIW, the plays I considered, in order.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play, overplay $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 O X 3 . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . 0 7 O 2 1 . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 9 8 6 X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play, overplay 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After

connects, the staff connection is strong, and White has no obvious follow-up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play, another attack $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . 2 1 3 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 4 X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The wedge looks like the strongest attack, just considering the weak group. But it strengthens Black toward the center, which hinders reducing the Black moyo. OC, I had noted the weaknesses in the left side group, but I did not appreciate the power of White "a", did not even consider it. My bad. :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play, large scale attack $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The boshi is not a very strong attack, but it aims at reducing the central Black moyo, as well, with possibly some support for an invasion or reduction of the left side. But :w2:

is too good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play, better shape $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

takes care of the reply at "a". OC, I saw :b2:

, but thought that building up outside strength would support an invasion of the central moyo. As I indicated, I was not very confident that this was the bot play. But it was a high shoulder blow.

Bot vs. human?

I correctly guessed that the boshi was the "natural" play, but it is not an example of topping the tree. White is not chasing Black out. It was not my first choice of attack. BTW, my first two choices were influenced by playing around with Deep Leela (Leela 11). I have been impressed a couple of times by its inside attacks of thin groups. Not that the idea was new to me, in general, but I had overlooked those possibilities. So now I am kind of primed to look for them.

As for LZ's possible splitting attack, it was not on my radar, but I think that it would be on the radar of stronger amateurs than I, and probably on the radar of a number of weaker ones. It strikes me as quite human.

Knotwilg · **#26**

Continuing on Bill's "blind spot"

What does "natural" mean in go?

Who is online