It is currently Wed May 07, 2025 3:20 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #21 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:59 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Uberdude wrote:
I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html


A couple suggestions for it.
1) Add Nongshim Cup
2) Color code the tournament locations as well when appropriate. I think there is some correlation with players playing better at a "home" tournament.

I also laugh at the free handicap suggestion.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #22 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:59 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
One argument I have heard (maybe here somewhere?) is that the longer playing times of japanese tournaments leads to a different style of play that doesn't work as well in the more hectic pacing of international tournaments.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #23 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:05 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
oren wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html


A couple suggestions for it.
1) Add Nongshim Cup
2) Color code the tournament locations as well when appropriate. I think there is some correlation with players playing better at a "home" tournament.

I also laugh at the free handicap suggestion.

That's a team competition, no?

(And while I'm being contrary, the chart is just busy enough to be informative without being completely useless. If he adds more colors for the locations, he might as well add powerpoint animations of flying aircraft.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #24 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:15 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
skydyr wrote:
One argument I have heard (maybe here somewhere?) is that the longer playing times of japanese tournaments leads to a different style of play that doesn't work as well in the more hectic pacing of international tournaments.



I have heard that as well, but I've never heard the Japanese actually say that before.

Mostly from what I hear in Korean and Japanese media is that the Korean and Chinese just study harder and in groups, but the Japanese aren't doing that as much. You could argue the focus of the Japanese players is to beat Japanese players and the Koreans and Chinese are focused on building stronger groups of players.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #25 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:20 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 844
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 151
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
SoDesuNe wrote:
As far as I know, japanese Go has a completely different culture evolving around Go than e.g. Korea. You have matches that last long hours, in the past (maybe still, I don't know), you had title games which last several days. Koreans play - I don't know therefore exaggerated - 5*30 seconds in title games?


From what I can tell from watching Korean BadukTV, the games seem to be 10 minutes + 5 * 40 seconds. That is a really fast pace, the games are remarkably high quality despite that, but mistakes are made, particularly in the end game (or maybe its just easier to prove end game moves are mistakes).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #26 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:39 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalTou ... TimeLimits

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #27 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:06 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2264
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 553
maybe Mickey Mouse time limits work best with Mickey Mouse stones.

Attachment:
2012-10-06 12.58.43.jpg
2012-10-06 12.58.43.jpg [ 394.53 KiB | Viewed 5709 times ]

edit: image too large


This post by xed_over was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, Phelan, rlaalswo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #28 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:27 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 22
From the Time chart it seems like the time issue isn't that big of a deal. All of the international tournaments have at least an hour of play time and it seems that it is mainly the Korean domestic tournaments with the blitz time settings.

One friend told me that the reason is within the teacher student relationships in these three countries.

In Japan when a teacher corrects a move of a high level amateur and says the correct move is here, the student listens and corrects his playing.

In Korea when this happens the student bows his head but then utters to himself that he/she is right and doesn't correct his playing

In China when this happens the student argues with the teacher explaining why he/she is right.

This of course is a gross generalization but to an extent could be quite true. The students who create these new moves and strategies eventually become the better players.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #29 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:41 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2264
Liked others: 1180
Was liked: 553
Subotai wrote:
In Japan ...

In Korea ...

In China ...

This of course is a gross generalization but to an extent could be quite true.

Image


This post by xed_over was liked by 3 people: gasana, p2501, speedchase
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #30 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:45 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 152
Liked others: 9
Was liked: 22
As I mentioned a friend told me this and some other friend told him. So this is just hearsay, yet may be evidence as to how Go has developed in the recent few decades.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #31 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:17 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 598
Location: Germany, Berlin
Liked others: 333
Was liked: 102
Rank: 4 kyu
Universal go server handle: p2501
Subotai wrote:
As I mentioned a friend told me this and some other friend told him. So this is just hearsay, yet may be evidence as to how Go has developed in the recent few decades.

Okay it's been at least dubious so far. But this screams troll.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #32 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:53 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Subotai wrote:
From the Time chart it seems like the time issue isn't that big of a deal.
All of the international tournaments have at least an hour of play time...
(my emphasis.)
Seems there's some misunderstanding -- an initial time of 2 hours per person is considered short for pros.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #33 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:53 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
EdLee wrote:
Subotai wrote:
From the Time chart it seems like the time issue isn't that big of a deal.
All of the international tournaments have at least an hour of play time...
(my emphasis.)
Seems there's some misunderstanding -- an initial time of 2 hours per person is considered short for pros.


Especially if you are only really familiar with 4,4 openings.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #34 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:16 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 159
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 36
Rank: EGF 3d
xed_over wrote:
Subotai wrote:
In Japan ...

In Korea ...

In China ...

This of course is a gross generalization but to an extent could be quite true.

Image


I heard this from Guo Juan probably at an open KGS+ lecture or similar promo lecture, on KGS. I remember it with Korean and Chinese switched, though not really sure. This was at least 2 years ago, possibly more.

Apart from that, An Younggil 8p sometimes touches the topic during his game commentaries. One thing he mentions is the burden of 2 (3?) years military service for Koreans pros, forcing a long break at crucial age. A few pros got exempt, or did short service, but apparently that's not possible anymore.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #35 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:37 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 26
Liked others: 320
Was liked: 0
Rank: kgs1k
GD Posts: 2
I too heard this "story" from Guo Juan, and also with chinese and korea the other way around. But i don't remember she was saying it has much to do with the strength (but i may have forgotten), but more with some crazy move which are often described as "korean style" (again my memory could be a bit off).

The argument with the 4-4 made me laugh for 10 minutes before i could breath again, great joke!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #36 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:44 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Attachment:
Nongshim.jpg
Nongshim.jpg [ 121.36 KiB | Viewed 5532 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #37 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:39 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
I wonder if there were someway to do unbiased statistics about games won and lost in head to head competition. IE are Koreans winning against Japanese or Chinese winning against Japanese. It could be that during a course of a tournament the Koreans tend to knock the Japanese out, and the Chinese do OK against either, however if they don't do equally well against both then they may not advance to the top levels of play. It would be interesting to see if this were the case.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #38 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:39 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 409
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 182
GD Posts: 1072
Subotai wrote:
Within the last few decades Korean Go players overtook the Japanese players (Years?). Chinese players have also overtaken the Japanese (Years?). What caused the slipping of the Japanese program and the rise of the Korean and Chinese programs?


This question comes up in one form or another on a regular basis. I'll recycle my usual reply.

People who look for genetic or cultural reasons are kidding themselves. Korea is good at go for the same reason that Russia was good at chess and Canada is good at hockey--they have lots of people (usually children) playing at the amateur levels that feed into the pro leagues.

John Power summed it up in twelve words: "Go is popular because Korean mothers think it makes their children smarter." In Korea go is regarded as an activity that can improve the brain and so Korean mothers don't mind shuttling their kids to go schools etc. In Japan, it's regarded as a past time along with video games. If parents are encouraging their children in one country and discouraging them in another, it is going to have an effect at the top levels.


This post by pwaldron was liked by 4 people: gasana, Phelan, speedchase, Txewì
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #39 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:05 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
pwaldron wrote:
Korean mothers don't mind shuttling their kids to go schools etc.


Ah the Baduke Mom minivan problem.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia
Post #40 Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:15 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 800
Liked others: 141
Was liked: 123
Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
SmoothOper wrote:
Especially if you are only really familiar with 4,4 openings.

seriously?
Japan was more successful earlier, which is when the 4,4 was played LESS.
not to mention that korea also uses traditional handicap placement.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group