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 Post subject: Re: Defending Against the press
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:03 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
This looks like the best response since if black gets a chance to fix weaknesses he black becomes dangerous. Black then has the option to threaten 3 with a, b or c, and white can run out with either b or c and gets a group in the middle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This one is the messy one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am not sure whether a or b is better for white. I guess vengeance is messy.

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: Defending Against the press
Post #22 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:25 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
SmoothOper wrote:
What is the best way to defend against second line press


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




I think black is in an inferior position after these, but the fighting is messy, any suggestions?


I am starting to see that getting a live group in a corner and and a relatively secure group in the center vs. two groups on the side with no base really is a superior position, and just running out makes the two groups heavier. I can stop complaining about it now :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Defending Against the press
Post #23 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:07 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
SmoothOper wrote:
...
I am starting to see that getting a live group in a corner and and a relatively secure group in the center vs. two groups on the side with no base really is a superior position, ...

This might be a slight over-generalization. Remember, the two side groups have a better chance of eyes in the future than your cutting stones in the middle. It is possible to find yourself in the middlegame with your opponent's two groups alive on the side, your corner group alive but isolated in the corner, and your cutting stones purposeless and vulnerable in the center.

SmoothOper wrote:
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe 9 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Offline
 Post subject: Re: Defending Against the press
Post #24 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:55 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 946
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 41
Rank: IGS 5kyu
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
...
I am starting to see that getting a live group in a corner and and a relatively secure group in the center vs. two groups on the side with no base really is a superior position, ...

This might be a slight over-generalization. Remember, the two side groups have a better chance of eyes in the future than your cutting stones in the middle. It is possible to find yourself in the middlegame with your opponent's two groups alive on the side, your corner group alive but isolated in the corner, and your cutting stones purposeless and vulnerable in the center.

SmoothOper wrote:
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe 9 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Its been my experience that that attack is too early, and whites group ends up drifting aimlessly in the center as black becomes thicker. If white simply extends at nine, black still has to make several moves to get anything resembling eye space or territory on either side a-f, furthermore the white group in the center has huge influence on the remain sides such as the red circles, as well as plenty of room to run and make eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . , . f . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 5 . 7 . 9 . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . c . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . C C . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . C . . . C C C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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