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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #21 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:07 pm 
Oza
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hyperpape wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
hyperpape, evaluation is not needed. A lack of oxygen causes at least one serious blunder, and that is too many. Every reasonable amount of thinking time spent on taking breaks is worth it.
This is too much of a simplification, read literally, since it does not define reasonable...

Ok, a serious note: does anyone have a reason to think oxygen deficiency is actually at issue here? I don't know a lot about this, but I'd be surprised if an ordinary room is likely to become oxygen deficient in a few hours time, regardless of how many people are in it. While looking around after reading this thread, I did hear that CO2 is more likely to be the culprit, which makes sense: Oxygen levels can easily and almost unnoticably vary by several tenths of a percent--while the range considered safe is a couple percent wide. In contrast, typical regulations on carbon dioxide require it to be below 1% or .5% where people work.

It's possible that Robert has a cardiopulmonary condition that is denying oxygen to his brain, but unless he was playing at a very high elevation or in the crater of a volcano, I doubt the availability of oxygen, carbon dioxide, or any other atmospheric gas was causing any problems.

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Post #22 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:59 pm 
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In the case of the referred game, I am very sure that I did not blunder because of heat (on that day, heat was not a noteworthy factor) but that I did blunder because of little oxygen and / or too much CO2 in the air (I cannot know which of these two gas concentrations is the problem). Anyway, the air felt "consumed"; it lacked freshness when breathing it.

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Post #23 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Eh, there's at least one study that says that classrooms, meetingrooms and the like can often build up enough CO2 to reduce one's cognitive abilities (though not to be otherwise dangerous). I don't know if it's reliable research or not, hence asking if anyone knew anything real.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #24 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:09 pm 
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If it's not heat, then it's likely a case of a blunder caused by distraction thinking there wasn't enough oxygen in the room.


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Post #25 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:13 pm 
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LOL Oxygen deficiency.. best excuse I've heard yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #26 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:27 pm 
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dfunkt wrote:
LOL Oxygen deficiency.. best excuse I've heard yet.


In the U.S., we call it the Gore/Obama/Denver debate defense.

I was going to suggest a portable fingertip pulse oximeter, but if the European Go regulators are going to disallow signs, something like this certainly won't pass:

Attachment:
oximeter.jpg
oximeter.jpg [ 4.26 KiB | Viewed 5525 times ]


I don't think it's a completely crazy idea. You can get some relatively inexpensive ones. Ambulance companies buy lots of them. If you can't wear it during the game, at least you could check the situation before and after the game to see if there really is any need for concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #27 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:28 pm 
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hyperpape, dfunkt, just see here.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #28 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:32 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In the case of the referred game, I am very sure that I did not blunder because of heat (on that day, heat was not a noteworthy factor) but that I did blunder because of little oxygen and / or too much CO2 in the air (I cannot know which of these two gas concentrations is the problem). Anyway, the air felt "consumed"; it lacked freshness when breathing it.


Seriously now:

Can you explain that? Why do you think out of all the possible reasons for a blunder, why do you think oxygen/co2 was the only likely reason? I find it very interesting, since I can very seldom say why I blunder... is it the beer, the loud music, the skimpy outfits of the waitress, the heat and smoke, or what...

Also, can you estimate how many games you might have won because of oxygen/co2 influence on your opponents? Does not need to be big blunders, just slightly weaker move here and there, stuff like that. After all - you are all playing under the same conditions, it stands to reason that if there was an issue it affected you all in one way or anther, no?

Or are you special in this respect?

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
I find it very interesting, since I can very seldom say why I blunder... is it the beer, the loud music, the skimpy outfits of the waitress, the heat and smoke, or what...


Now I want to visit your go club... :D


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Post #30 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:43 pm 
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snorri wrote:
Bantari wrote:
I find it very interesting, since I can very seldom say why I blunder... is it the beer, the loud music, the skimpy outfits of the waitress, the heat and smoke, or what...


Now I want to visit your go club... :D


Actually, when I was living in Germany, all the clubs I ever went to were in bars, and smoking was allowed, as was skimpiness, so... not so weird at that time. Of course, in the US things are different, and I find myself in such situation only at private Go meetings... minus the waitress, usually. ;)

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Post #31 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
[..] when I was living in Germany, all the clubs I ever went to were in bars, and smoking was allowed, as was skimpiness [..]
Smoking is forbidden meanwhile in Germany in almost all public rooms. Skimpiness still is allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #32 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:16 pm 
Judan

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oren wrote:
a blunder caused by distraction thinking there wasn't enough oxygen in the room.


Of course, not. As I have said, I became aware of the problem only DUE TO the blunder (when then wondering why the blunder could have occurred at all, and bad air is the only possible explanation in this case; other possible explanations, such as heat, tired, psychology independent of air condition, distraction, insufficient understanding of go theory, did not apply).

Bantari wrote:
Why do you think out of all the possible reasons for a blunder, why do you think oxygen/co2 was the only likely reason?


Because I could exclude every other conceivable, relevant reason, see above.

Besides, after the blunder, I could recall the relevant part of how I made a decision: it was a battle I lost against my brain's urgent request to get the decision making job done quickly for the sake getting a rest ASAP. Similar to playing online at 3 am when being by far too tired, but here not tiredness but air was the problem.

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Also, can you estimate how many games you might have won because of oxygen/co2 influence on your opponents?


I cannot know. Inferring from the kind of mistakes my opponents made, I would say: none. Because the mistakes, due to which they lost, were not blunders well below their playing strength, but could be reasonably explained as insufficient understanding / application of go theory. However, I cannot be sure at all; it could be that bad air let them make slightly suboptimal go theory application.

I am surer about my own other games during this congress: I lost one other due to heat (ca. 37.5 °C, although another room on that day way reported to have had 41°C). The other games I lost due to insufficient go theory understanding / application. Actually, I am impressed that heat affected me so little this year; in 2007, it was much worse; maybe I have learnt from that experience. But the oxygen problem caught me unexpectedly; I simply was not prepared to defend against it in time at all. In most other tournaments, the air conditioning is to open windows if needed, and apparently this works.

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you are all playing under the same conditions, it stands to reason that if there was an issue it affected you all in one way or anther, no?


Sure. (However, different players can be affected differently, because of different physical stanima. As an understatement, mine is not particularly impressive. I do not use stanima as an excuse, but just as an illustration why it is not necessarily a coincidence that I clearly noticed to be affected by the bad air condition.)

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Or are you special in this respect?


Please understand that I do not intend to reveal details. It is bad enough that people like Claudia Pechstein needed to reveal every detail of their blood just to defend (in vain) their case at courts.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #33 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:39 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Please understand that I do not intend to reveal details.


That's ok, and I certainly respect that.

Well, then, the only way I can see for you is to either:
a) don't play in tournaments where games are played in non-ventilated rooms, or
b) try to adjust the rules so that each tournament hall has to be sufficient ventilated, or
c) just chalk it off as 'one of those things' (I am pretty sure each one of us has some) and move on.

Sorry I could not be more helpful.

PS>
How about brain-fart? Ruled this one out as well? Or multiple conditions, each of them insufficient by itself, but combined - very potent? Like: lack of oxygen contributed, but it would not have been sufficient if not for the heat, or too much beer last night, or whatever? Perfect storm theory? Just curious, and you don't need to answer if you are uncomfortable with that. I know I am being pushy here.

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 Post subject: Re: Oxygen
Post #34 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:07 am 
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snorri wrote:

Attachment:
oximeter.jpg



You don't have to go this crazy
But a noticeable ring would work.

>>Play stone
>>Wonder why the heck you're wearing this ring
>>Oh yeah to remind me to breathe.

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Post #35 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:15 am 
Judan

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Bantari wrote:
How about brain-fart? [...] multiple conditions


No. (Not relevant in this case.)

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Post #36 Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:10 am 
Tengen

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Bonobo wrote:
hyperpape, dfunkt, just see here.
Yes, most of those links reference the same study that I saw.

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