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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:54 pm 
Oza

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oren wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
I've always liked a pair of 3-4 stones as Black purely from an aesthetic point of view, which I think is perfectly acceptable as a reason to choose them. :P


Facing each other, both on the same third line or opposite? :)


Opposing normally. Facing each other or on the same line for White, not Black, though really at my level I don't think this division makes sense (other than with opposing as Black I can normally expect to get a shimari if I want one if my opponent takes both of the other corners).

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #22 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
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SmoothOper wrote:
Who said you deserved white when playing me?
No one. You just made that up.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #23 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:17 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
Who said you deserved white when playing me?
No one. You just made that up.


Well, since when do they place white as handicap?

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #24 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:29 pm 
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I still have no idea what you're trying to say or why you think anyone plays white against you. Seems totally disconnected from everything else.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #25 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:20 pm 
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I have retroactively hidden my posts in this thread using the spoiler tag. SmoothOper is still continuing to post non-sequiturs and logically invalid statements. However, as a principle, I have never liked the sort of smart-alecky public shaming exercise that I just initiated. Looking back, I have been refusing to engage SmoothOper not long after he first arrived here because I decided then that it would be a waste of time, I should have continued that policy instead of doing what I did. This is how thread derailments happen.

I apologize to SmoothOper for singling him out in this manner. I should have either made a post devoid of the mocking remarks or just refused to engage him as I have done in the past. I got carried away.

Please continue the discussion of your favorite opening moves.

--the end

hyperpape wrote:
I still have no idea what you're trying to say or why you think anyone plays white against you. Seems totally disconnected from everything else.
Welcome to SmoothOper Studies 101: Intro to SmoothOper

Posting non-sequiturs is sort of SmoothOper's known smooth modus operandi. You might be happier just talking around him unless you are a mind reader. SmoothOper also has a well-known dislike for the traditional handicap placement system. Many heroes have tried to climb that wall with SmoothOper and failed. If you are the kind of enterprising student who is diligent enough and brilliant enough to handle a challenge like that, then here's...Lesson #1: Mind Reading. For what it's worth, your professor is a complete coward who is neither brave enough nor smart enough to handle that challenge.

SmoothOper wrote:
I like the 3-3. Initially the smaller number of Joseki appealed to me, and of the alternate openings(3-4,3-5,5-4) it appeared to be the strongest against the 4-4, which is so popular.
3-3 is not any stronger against the 4-4 than those other moves. Perhaps SmoothOper is just talking about his own winning percentages with the 3-3 against the 4-4.
SmoothOper wrote:
If go weren't so cut throat, I would like to experiment with other openings,
SmoothOper doesn't have to play competitive games all the time, he can experiment in a casual game and (gasp!) lose. We can interpret this statement as follows: He cares a little bit too much about winning and losing. This is no character flaw, but it would be useful for us know this if we have the patience to engage SmoothOper in discussion.
SmoothOper wrote:
maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games,
SmoothOper is factually wrong here. Even an older resource like Rin Kaiho's fuseki dictionary has major parts devoted to 5-4 and 3-5. He means that he personally has never read such books.
SmoothOper wrote:
and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement.
The structure of this phrase strongly suggests that SmoothOper would like to play moves other than 4-4 as his black handicap stones. It makes no sense to talk about the restrictions of handicap placement with regard to scenarios in which he plays white. SmoothOper's mind likes to express his distaste for traditional handicap placement and the 4-4 whenever possible, even if it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, an associative connection exists between 4-4 and handicap games so I believe that in the non-deductive system that is computing in SmoothOper's mind, he is making a point.

DISCLAIMER: Mind reading is not a valid science and completely unreliable. Also, this post maybe completely inappropriate because I might be a little drunk.


Last edited by lemmata on Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by lemmata was liked by 3 people: nacroxnicke, oren, Yuc4h
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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #26 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:28 pm 
Oza

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Well, you may be a little drunk, but you certain talked around him a lot. Well, at around a lot of quotes from him.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #27 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:13 pm 
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lemmata wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
I still have no idea what you're trying to say or why you think anyone plays white against you. Seems totally disconnected from everything else.
Welcome to SmoothOper Studies 101: Intro to SmoothOper

Posting non-sequiturs is sort of SmoothOper's known smooth modus operandi. You might be happier just talking around him unless you are a mind reader. SmoothOper also has a well-known dislike for the traditional handicap placement system. Many heroes have tried to climb that wall with SmoothOper and failed. If you are the kind of enterprising student who is diligent enough and brilliant enough to handle a challenge like that, then here's...Lesson #1: Mind Reading. For what it's worth, your professor is a complete coward who is neither brave enough nor smart enough to handle that challenge.

SmoothOper wrote:
I like the 3-3. Initially the smaller number of Joseki appealed to me, and of the alternate openings(3-4,3-5,5-4) it appeared to be the strongest against the 4-4, which is so popular.
3-3 is not any stronger against the 4-4 than those other moves. Perhaps SmoothOper is just talking about his own winning percentages with the 3-3 against the 4-4.
SmoothOper wrote:
If go weren't so cut throat, I would like to experiment with other openings,
SmoothOper doesn't have to play competitive games all the time, he can experiment in a casual game and (gasp!) lose. We can interpret this statement as follows: He cares a little bit too much about winning and losing. This is no character flaw, but it would be useful for us know this if we have the patience to engage SmoothOper in discussion.
SmoothOper wrote:
maybe 5-4 and 3-5 and tengen, but there aren't many good resources for studying these openings except maybe an addendum in a joseki book and a few odd pro games,
SmoothOper is factually wrong here. Even an older resource like Rin Kaiho's fuseki dictionary has major parts devoted to 5-4 and 3-5. He means that he personally has never read such books.
SmoothOper wrote:
and generally these openings don't mesh well with the traditional handicap ranking systems used by the AGA, which has officially endorsed the 4-4 as the only sanctioned handicap placement.
The structure of this phrase strongly suggests that SmoothOper would like to play moves other than 4-4 as his black handicap stones. It makes no sense to talk about the restrictions of handicap placement with regard to scenarios in which he plays white. SmoothOper's mind likes to express his distaste for traditional handicap placement and the 4-4 whenever possible, even if it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, an associative connection exists between 4-4 and handicap games so I believe that in the non-deductive system that is computing in SmoothOper's mind, he is making a point.

DISCLAIMER: Mind reading is not a valid science and completely unreliable. Also, this post maybe completely inappropriate because I might be a little drunk.


So what you are saying is that, there are books about 3-5 or 5-4 and chapters in books that I would like to read, but I haven't, because I will be judged by the quality of my hoshi handicap games against supposedly "stronger" players, who just happen to prefer black on 4-4 points, and that if I try alternate opening and lose, I will be compelled to play additional handicap placed stones in subsequent games, so will never have an opportunity to develop alternate openings, unless I play online far away from AGA rules. Aha, you read my mind!

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #28 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:12 pm 
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I have retroactively hidden my posts in this thread using the spoiler tag. SmoothOper is still continuing to post non-sequiturs and logically invalid statements. However, as a principle, I have never liked the sort of smart-alecky public shaming exercise that I just initiated. Looking back, I have been refusing to engage SmoothOper not long after he first arrived here because I decided then that it would be a waste of time, I should have continued that policy instead of doing what I did. This is how thread derailments happen.

I apologize to SmoothOper for singling him out in this manner. I should have either made a post devoid of the mocking remarks or just refused to engage him as I have done in the past. I got carried away.

Please continue the discussion of your favorite opening moves.

--the end
Dear Class,

Your professor has just received a prestigious award from the highest authority in this field. I quote:
SmoothOper wrote:
Aha, you read my mind!
I will deliver a plenary lecture in commemoration of this momentous occasion.
SmoothOper wrote:
So what you are saying is that, there are books about 3-5 or 5-4 and chapters in books that I would like to read, but I haven't, because I will be judged by the quality of my hoshi handicap games
The most logical interpretation of this statement is that the Smooth Operator would like to read about 3-5 and 5-4, but has not done so because his time is limited and he is using that time to read about the 4-4 so that he can win games where a lot of 4-4s are placed. Again, we see that the Smooth Operator is a very competitive species, who feels so trapped by the need to win that he would rather read about the stuff that he hates rather than the stuff he that interests him.
SmoothOper wrote:
against supposedly "stronger" players, who just happen to prefer black on 4-4 points,
Again, we see that the Smooth Operator displays signs of insecurity. He places the word "stronger" in quotation marks to indicate that he is unwilling to accept that strength in go is determined by the ability to win.

Bonus (interdisciplinary studies): We may analyze the sociological phenomena that led to this insecurity. Go players, while generally a cordial group, includes a vocal minority of immature youngsters who are desperate to use the 19x19 grid to figuratively shout "I am a lion! Hear me roar!" From this we may conjecture that the Smooth Operator may be someone who is considered intelligent in his own field of expertise and has had his pride wounded by this pack of wannabe lions. I would recommend that he travel in a properly shielded go safari cart the next time, but the damage may be permanent.
SmoothOper wrote:
and that if I try alternate opening and lose, I will be compelled to play additional handicap placed stones in subsequent games, so will never have an opportunity to develop alternate openings, unless I play online far away from AGA rules.
Now, I would like the non-scholarly members of the audience to focus their attention on this phrase so that I can introduce them to one of the key methodologies of study in our field. Like a naturalist deducing the wild coyote's diet from its droppings or the ornithologist doing the same for an owl by dissecting its pellet, we can discover more facts about this mysterious species called SmoothOper from this statement. More details about this groundbreaking discovery can be found in my forthcoming paper "The Hidden Logic of Illogical Arguments".

Clue #1: SmoothOper is aware that he can play online to avoid handicap games.

Clue #2: SmoothOper's offline playing options seem to enforce AGA rules and handicaps.

Clue #3: SmoothOper continues to be frustrated by handicap stones despite the availability of online play.

Conclusion: There is something that makes SmoothOper avoid online play. This is where I call upon the brilliant minds sitting in the audience to suggest hypotheses to be tested. It could be that internet access is limited in SmoothOper's neck of the woods. However, we see that he can post on L19, so perhaps his internet connection is not reliable enough for live play. Perhaps he is unaware of sites like OGS-nova, where he can play correspondence games and challenge stronger players on the ladder to EVEN games and the stronger player must accept. Correction: Please put quotation marks around the word "stronger", as is the convention for scholarly works in this field. This seems like a reasonable hypothesis, but this field is one in which "reasonable" is often just red herring.

We must never stop at the reasonable. We must continue to push the envelope of unreasonable hypotheses! For science! Perhaps Smooth Operators will avoid online play even when a reliable Internet connection is available. Perhaps Smooth Operator is Julian Assange, and transmitting WikiLeaks documents using the go board as an encryption device. This results in him playing unconventional openings/moves that lead him to lose. Smooth Operator values the freedom of information and resistance to tyranny more than winning, but he is annoyed that each transmission makes his handicap going up.

Again, this time just for my colleagues in the field of Smooth Operator Studies. I am #1! Neener neener neener.
SmoothOper wrote:
Aha, you read my mind!


PS: I think I am nearly sobered up now. Oh god, what the heck was I on? I might as well post what I already typed, though. I apologize to anyone offended by my posts.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #29 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:56 pm 
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leichtloeslich wrote:
I have trouble thinking of professional games I've seen recently which don't feature at least one 4-4 during the first 4 moves of the game.

Try looking at http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/33207/6
or http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32023/6 .

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #30 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:46 pm 
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This is my thing: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #31 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Here's another one, I call it "Pippen-Fuseki":

1. Mark every intersection on the 3rd and 4th line with a number (=104 numbers).
2. Get a random generator.
3. Play the first move in the corner on x-x (my choice: 4-4).
4. Then let the random generator decide the next moves under the following conditions:
a) If a numver comes up that is already occupied by a stone then let a new number be created.
b) If a number comes up that is (vertically or horizonally) as near as y (my choice: 1) intersections on one of your own stones then let a new number be created.
c) Stop this algorithm after your move y (my choice: 7) or if you have to create a 5th number on a move.
5. Continue the game according to what was dealt to you.

I would tend to believe that the success-rate of a Fuseki like that is as good as any Fuseki as long as we do talk about players weaker than 1p. Obviously one can go into detail of the algorithm even more to make the fuski more fitting. The benefit of a fuseki like that could be that you are unpredictable and to shock your opponent while you forcing yourself to let your creative juices flow instead of staying in some patterns/affections.


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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #32 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:54 pm 
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4-4 is what I know best, because I started out playing handicap games, and 4-4 stones are already there for me.
I am still less comfortable with all other moves, but I sometimes play 3-4.

I prefer 4-4 to 3-4, if I have to choose, because:
1.) I know it better.
2.) 4-4 has no directional bias. It can be interesting to make a strategy with direction in fuseki, though.

Still, it's kind of hard to restrict myself to not playing a particular move, because it depends on the situation.

That being said, I'm not a fan of 3-3 or 5-5.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #33 Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:43 am 
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My preference is 4-3 because of the variety of joseki. 4-4 has grown quite boring for me.

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Post #34 Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:55 pm 
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I remember the time I won a game using tengen. It's funny because people act like you aren't allowed to go there a lot and sometimes people actually yell at you for moving there online. but I was determined for a while I was like, no, I want to play an awesome game with tengen. That's probably my first instinct anyway, when I first learned it, because you're allowed to put the pieces anywhere after all, and make any shape you want. But I don't have a preference I just know you're supposed to go corner.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #35 Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:19 pm 
Oza

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darWIN wrote:
I remember the time I won a game using tengen. It's funny because people act like you aren't allowed to go there a lot and sometimes people actually yell at you for moving there online. but I was determined for a while I was like, no, I want to play an awesome game with tengen. That's probably my first instinct anyway, when I first learned it, because you're allowed to put the pieces anywhere after all, and make any shape you want. But I don't have a preference I just know you're supposed to go corner.


Funny you should post this just now. I played tengen five minutes ago for the first time in ages. My logic was that it had been 10 days since the last game with that opponents (on DGS) and so the 10-10 made sense.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #36 Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:53 am 
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I'm currently trying two star points as either color or sometimes try the Chinese opening as white. I'm supposed to be practicing framework building so they seem like a simple way.

However, it's hard to always get into a viable framework game with white so I might try some 5th and 6th line opening stones.

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 Post subject: Re: What is your preference for opening moves?
Post #37 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:59 am 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I've been playing the mini-chinese a lot as black lately, or at least trying to. Most of the time, my opponents pincer instead, and I've been trying different strategies to deal with that.

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