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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:10 am 
Oza

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I wonder if there's been any concerted efforts to get in touch with the growing board game communities in different countries. The board games they play are different, but some of those people may find go interesting.


It is already widely known that they find it "interesting". The problem seems to be that they are not prepared to take it up because they realise at once that it is so deep that they (a) can't devote the necessary time to it without giving up other games, and (b) they can't make meaningful discoveries themselves as the game has been already well analysed. The people for whom the latter point matters seem instead to use go just as a springboard to invent variants.

To attract the sort of people who will devote themselves both to go and the social side of the game outside the internet (the sort the BGA is probably meant for) more targeted focus is probably necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #42 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:50 am 
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A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)

On popularity/publicity: One shouldn't take one for the other. Films like "Pi" or "The beautiful mind" may have increased publicity, while scaring off thousands from taking up the game.

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:16 am 
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tapir wrote:
A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)


Do you have a particular entry in mind ?
It does seem that the information regarding the Nippon club meeting on Friday is, I believe, out of date. That is now replaced by the London City club.

I found a similar problem some years ago when I visited the Calais and Pau clubs - nobody there !

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:58 am 
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richardamullens wrote:
tapir wrote:
A minor issue, but for visitors in the UK an updated list of clubs and contacts would be welcome. That is as opposed to a list of former clubs not meeting anymore. (Look for London clubs in the alphabetical list.)


Do you have a particular entry in mind ?
It does seem that the information regarding the Nippon club meeting on Friday is, I believe, out of date. That is now replaced by the London City club.

I found a similar problem some years ago when I visited the Calais and Pau clubs - nobody there !


There are quite a lot of non entities on the webpage...

Farnborough Village
No longer meets.


Glenrothes
Wednesday around 19:00, 63 Braemar Gardens, Glenrothes, Fife, KY6 2RF.
Alan Stewart, alan_r_stewart at hotmail.com, 01592 772247.
Club web page: http://www.glenrothesgoclub.co.uk/. - Website doesn't exist

Liverpool
Now ceased to meet and previous contacts have left area

London, Imperial College
Also known as the Imperial College go club.
Yu-Xi Chau, yu.chau at imperial.ac.uk.
The club is currently dormant, but may well start up soon once negotiations with the union are done.


London, North West
Keith Rapley, rapleykeith@hotmail.com.
Club web page: http://www.britgo.org/clubs/lonnw/.
No longer meeting!

London, South Woodford
Also known as the Woodford go club.
No longer meets.

Maidenhead
Friday 20:00, various places.
Iain Attwell, 01628 676792, Norhurst, Westmorland Rd, Maidenhead. SL6 4HB.
Club web page: http://www.maidenheadgoclub.com/. account suspended

Southampton
No longer meets

Taunton
Seems to have ceased to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #45 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:39 am 
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richardamullens wrote:
jts wrote:
As an onlooker from afar, what is the problem with declining membership? Is it causing fiscal problems for the BGA, or is it purely a matter of pride?


It is just one of many symptoms that makes one feel that Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere.

If for example our funds are low, then prizes at tournaments are reduced so the better players stay away - I think you can see the consequences of that.


I think that there are a few mistakes in the reasoning here. First of all, for the health of a go-playing community - whether this is a local group, a club, or a national association - the number of strong players is completely irrelevant. What you really need are enthousiastic volunteers (anywhere between 20 kyu and 7 dan is excellent) and a healthy number of beginning players. Go is easy enough to teach that people who have the time and interest are relatively easy to enthuse. Lack of other beginners will drive them away very rapidly though. And who cares if they then join the national association or not? If a cool new person joins my club, I am happy either way!

Given that 337 people played in some tournament or the other last year, I do not believe that "Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere". All this negativity will only drive people away unnecessarily.

Finally, suboptimal rulesets should not stop anyone from enjoying the game. I strongly believe that when explaining go, there is no such thing as bad rulesets, only bad teachers!

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #46 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:12 pm 
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gaius wrote:
I think that there are a few mistakes in the reasoning here. First of all, for the health of a go-playing community - whether this is a local group, a club, or a national association - the number of strong players is completely irrelevant.
Given that 337 people played in some tournament or the other last year, I do not believe that "Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere". All this negativity will only drive people away unnecessarily.


Well I don't agree with you.
If I may quote some more statistics, there were 67 Dutch entrants to the Wintergo whereas there were only 56 UK entrants to the London Open.
Given that the UK population is nearly 4 times that of the Netherlands, that doesn't seem very healthy to me, particularly as attendance has declined in recent years.

Moreover there were 17 NL players weaker than 10k at the Wintergo, but only 1 UK player at the London Open. That doesn't strike me as healthy either.

Strong players inspire weaker players. I watched Kim Ouweleen play informal games in last year's Zomergo. He played a fun game. If inspirational players stay away we are done for.

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #47 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:45 pm 
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richardamullens wrote:
gaius wrote:
I think that there are a few mistakes in the reasoning here. First of all, for the health of a go-playing community - whether this is a local group, a club, or a national association - the number of strong players is completely irrelevant.
Given that 337 people played in some tournament or the other last year, I do not believe that "Go in the UK is less healthy than elsewhere". All this negativity will only drive people away unnecessarily.


Well I don't agree with you.
If I may quote some more statistics, there were 67 Dutch entrants to the Wintergo whereas there were only 56 UK entrants to the London Open.
Given that the UK population is nearly 4 times that of the Netherlands, that doesn't seem very healthy to me, particularly as attendance has declined in recent years.

Moreover there were 17 NL players weaker than 10k at the Wintergo, but only 1 UK player at the London Open. That doesn't strike me as healthy either.

Strong players inspire weaker players. I watched Kim Ouweleen play informal games in last year's Zomergo. He played a fun game. If inspirational players stay away we are done for.


Strong players inspire weak players, to be sure. But I can sign on to KGS and be inspired by high dan players on a daily basis. (Or I could go through some sgf files and be inspired by 9-dan professionals.) I'm sure the situation is parallel in Britain. I suspect that in 2010, Western go players find it easier to be inspired by stronger players than ever before in the history of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #48 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:49 pm 
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richardamullens wrote:
Well I don't agree with you.
If I may quote some more statistics, there were 67 Dutch entrants to the Wintergo whereas there were only 56 UK entrants to the London Open.
Given that the UK population is nearly 4 times that of the Netherlands, that doesn't seem very healthy to me, particularly as attendance has declined in recent years.

Moreover there were 17 NL players weaker than 10k at the Wintergo, but only 1 UK player at the London Open. That doesn't strike me as healthy either.

Strong players inspire weaker players. I watched Kim Ouweleen play informal games in last year's Zomergo. He played a fun game. If inspirational players stay away we are done for.

Kim is only 3 dan, so if he is already inspirational enough, I'm sure that there are plenty of inspirational players in the UK as well! Anyway, the London Open is kind of a serious tournament, isn't it (I'm not British, so I'm not sure)? Anyway, Wintergo is a go camp where most people don't give a damn about the tournament but just want to spend the time between Christmas and New Year playing all kinds of games in the middle of beautiful nature. Many people bring their kids, therefore many of the double-digit kyu players are children. Now I do not live in the UK and I don't have children, but if I would, I doubt that I'd take them to a serious tournament during winter...

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #49 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:00 pm 
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gaius wrote:
Kim is only 3 dan, so if he is already inspirational enough, I'm sure that there are plenty of inspirational players in the UK as well! Anyway, the London Open is kind of a serious tournament, isn't it (I'm not British, so I'm not sure)? Anyway, Wintergo is a go camp where most people don't give a damn about the tournament but just want to spend the time between Christmas and New Year playing all kinds of games in the middle of beautiful nature. Many people bring their kids, therefore many of the double-digit kyu players are children. Now I do not live in the UK and I don't have children, but if I would, I doubt that I'd take them to a serious tournament during winter...


Check the European ratings for NL & UK

There are 3 active players for the UK above 2250 who claim London as their club.
For Amsterdam there there are 6 and it is considerably smaller than London.

The Dutch Go scene is healthier because there are children playing. It does not matter that the Wintergo is not serious. (Actually, I believe that the Wintergo is serious - if it is like the Zomergo with games and talks).

Zomergo and WinterGo are awesome. They are 4-5 day residential tournaments that are cheap, with lessons, the Beer/Wine/Pop costs 50 cents or less and coffee/tea are free. The price covers all food and accommodation. I also liked my prize in 2009 - a bottle of Skuumkoppe - http://www.rhodamine.eu/~richard/diary/pictures/img_1881.jpeg


Last edited by richardamullens on Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #50 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:09 pm 
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the biggest clubs are utrecht, leiden and den haag i think. the dutch go association has a special team tournament called the national go competetion. this is what helps players bond in go clubs and visit other clubs. Maybe the BGA should try to accomplish something like this too

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 Post subject: Re: new low
Post #51 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:35 am 
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richardamullens wrote:
Zomergo and WinterGo are awesome. They are 4-5 day residential tournaments that are cheap, with lessons, the Beer/Wine/Pop costs 50 cents or less and coffee/tea are free. The price covers all food and accommodation. I also liked my prize in 2009 - a bottle of Skuumkoppe - http://www.rhodamine.eu/~richard/diary/pictures/img_1881.jpeg

Yes, they are awesome! These "go camps" are growing every year, only because everybody loves them.

So if you really wants to give a new stimulus to the UK go community: go ahead and organize your own summer/winter go camp! Yes, I know it's a lot of work, but if someone takes the time and does it, I'm sure everyone will love them for it...

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