But if you're a beginner it's not as readily apparent (I doubt someone just introduced to chess is already counting material), and still the loss is just a loss, you don't lose by 150, or even lose by the material difference on the board, you just get a 0-1. It would be like if at the end of the game in chess, you not only were checkmated, but you had to sit through your opponent counting how many of his pieces were left and how many of yours had been captured just to verify...In chess is far rarer that you will be in an absolutely dominated position, yet have to continue for 150 moves just to verify that fact (this is assuming you don't have an opponent that is just toying with you). It would be similar to if chess had a rule where you must remove every other piece from the board before you could declare checkmate (even if they were in checkmate).

It might be of course, but not necessarily. As I recall from my own first months as a goplayer I found that kind of experience mysterious and intriguing, I think it added to the fascination of the game.

H.

It's fascinating, yes, and I suspect that a lot of people keep playing because they're fascinated rather than because they're having a lot of fun. Chess is fun even if you've only just learned the rules; at that level, Go is just bewildering and frustrating. My own theory is that chess becomes less enjoyable as you get stronger, whereas Go becomes more so (at least up to a certain point). A lot of people don't get to the point where Go is enjoyable enough to keep playing.

I found both got more enjoyable the stronger I got. I'm a stronger go player than a chess player, but for me, they become fun as soon as you are in a position where you can always have a whole game plan, that evolves and adapts as the game continues.

Am I the only one who doesn't find chess enjoyable? In go your moves do something. They may not do much, but at least it's not easy to ruin your own position with a move. In chess, a move is just as likely to make your position worse as to make it better, and, as a beginner, I can't tell one from the other. Most of the time I feel like not moving at all would be safest. But I have to move, so I try reading ahead, and the positions at the limit of my reading ability don't seem any better or worse than the original. I end up picking a move pretty much at random. Eventually a bunch of my pieces die and I have no will to play anymore.

In go, beginners very quickly get to a stage where they build walls and separate the board into huge territories - they may not be doing it correctly but at least there's some visible meaning to their moves.

You guys need a new acronym - IANACH - it even sounds good!

What's this supposed to mean?

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

In chess, it's much easier to see what your pieces do. At least that's the feeling I get when I play Go. Chess is probably a draw so with best play the evaluation shouldn't change much.

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My plan to become an SDK is here.

I am not a chess [something]? By analogy with IANAL-I am not a lawyer.

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Occupy Babel!

Historian. Look at mine and Bantari's posts again.

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My plan to become an SDK is here.

Increasing the base of the very casual player will be the foundation to increasing the popularity. I know there are clubs that meet in the local bookstores, cafes, etc., very public places. While I'm sure that players in these venues would gladly answer any questions from folks passing by, how many of them have a poster or a sign board on an easel explaining what's going on or for that matter, have a 9x9 board set up with someone there to show a couple of the basics like capturing, etc.?

While I was at the U.S. Congress, it was rather unique being on a college campus. There were a couple of times going through the hallway that I was stopped by people asking me what was going on. I would give them the 5 minute explanation and if they showed some interest I went a little deeper and always pointing them to the AGA website if they wanted more information. Not sure if any did, but the point is we have to be interactive with those around us who maybe interested.

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"Play confidently. Make the best of mistakes."
- Janice Kim, Learn to Play Go Vol. 1

For estimates of players in various countries, one might consider the Japanese go census, though it is out of date. http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/o ... ensus.html

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Occupy Babel!

Another reason there is difficulty spreading the game I think is that Go looks intimidating compared to other games because of the large number of points on the board. See this article for an example. I have seen a number of newspaper and magazine articles like this where the authors quail at the apparent complexity of the game.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

There are I think two areas to focus on here: increasing awareness and increasing currency. Increasing awareness obviously has to come first, and the best way to do that is to simply tell people you know and maybe try to get covered by the local media. It wouldn't hurt if we all wore Go tee shirts either. Increasing currency obviously is an extension of increasing awareness, but it more involves encouraging beginners and helping them improve, hopefully kindling a desire to continue playing and become stronger.
But how do we achieve these goals? The exact strategy should of course vary depending on the culture and environment of each country. We need to identify what, if any, cultural tendencies can be taken advantage of to help the game catch on quicker. I'd be interested, if anyone here is in advertising, about your thoughts on this. We need to start looking at questions like: Why do countries such as Russia and Hungary (and Europe in general, though to a lesser extent) seem to have more players, and more strong players in particular? Increasing currency can only be achieved by developing a consistent and exhaustive curriculum sponsored by major Go organizations in each country, as exists in China and Korea. That will increase the level of strength enough that "professional" organizations in Europe or the U.S. won't necessarily be so much of a joke.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't know what you mean to express by "currency".

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Occupy Babel!

Is there any data available how the go population developed in the west? In particular I'm interested if the general availability of the internet made the player number grow significantly. The advantage of easily finding opponents no matter how strong or weak you are is so big that I'm surprised that there was a notable number of go players before that.

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Sanity is for the weak.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. The definition of "currency" I am using in this case basically means something that is relatively popular with the public, or at least well known in the society in general.


The internet definitely has caused a major boom. Besides the ability to play online, it was difficult if not impossible before to even get equipment, and at worst you had to make it yourself. As to the exact numbers though, I don't know.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

Perhaps I'm having more luck than others, but I'm not having any trouble spreading knowledge about Go in my area (Defined mainly as my workplace). Reading books, carrying around a small 9x9 with stones, and bringing up Go in conversations has done much.

In less than a month since seriously deciding to pick up the game (I've played some here and there for a year) I now have five co-workers who I can play at any given time, a constant supply of possible recruits (Company is Japan based, have large number of engineers and technicians rotating in and out from there), and a possible in-house competition brewing if we can get enough interest.

Even better than that, one guy I introduced to Go owns a cafe and has entertained the idea of opening it on Saturdays as a Go Salon! With the ever present 'if we get enough interest.'

What seems to help is to make it presentable. Show them the 9x9 first. Give them the run of the rules. After 10 moves stop them and show them what's different between your moves and their moves. Then try again. After two tries they usually get the feel of what the game is about, on the small board.

I'm going to keep from rambling too much more. I do not think a champion or title-holder from America will help spread Go more than if we didn't. Another tv series wouldn't hurt much, but it would more than likely show late night on cable access than on network.

What would help the most with making Go more popular is going out, playing where people see, talking with people about it, and not be too serious about it when you're doing it. If you see two people stoically straining over a board as if at competition, you are less apt to ask what they're playing than you would two people amicably chatting while playing a friendly game.

PS - Hurray for first post
PPS - I do realize this topic is about national popularity. It has to start somewhere, right?

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Morning is the best time for a second shifter. You have plenty of time to deal with the impending doom of work beforehand and you have all night afterwords to recuperate.

This post is a continuation from here

So I have this idea for a collaborative Go site, that would serve as the central hub of the online Go community. Volunteers would compose news articles and open source books and problem collections, and then users would translate that material into their native languages, and promote the use of the site by other players in their country. A user would be compensated for his/her work by being provided a free go or language related service by another user.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War