Komi pie: will it ever become widely used?

Bantari · **#81**

Kirby wrote:

For what it's worth, I am not trying to be mean or anything. Any sarcasm I have is from genuine confusion as to why people think that the komi pie is such a big deal. It seems like such a perfect idea to me.

Well, not trying to be mean or anything, but you behave a little like a dog with a bone. I sympathize - this is where I have to slap myself on the wrist for a lot too. But at some point you have to accept that you said what you needed to say, and now its up to the people to make up their minds. Insisting that you are right and arguing until either all get bored or offended is counter-productive.

Bottom line is: (some) people just dislike the idea of komi pie just as strongly as you like it. And because it is really a matter of preference - i am not sure either of you can really convince the other. So ask yourself this - are you really adding anything of value to your case by such insistance?

Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice. From this perspective, why not just give people the freedom of choice to not like komi pie. And you can exercise your personal freedom of choice and use komi pie in your own game (whenever supported, like in club games.) I suspect that what you find out is that you will either mostly play White, or mostly play Black, or have to constantly remember results and adjust komi against each specific opponent... or you decide komi is around 6.5 and absolutely nothing will change.

Just my 2 cents.

Bill Spight · **#82**

Boidhre wrote:

That assumes symmetrical komi preferences though if I am reading it correctly.

No, I am not talking about preferences, I am talking about game values and strategies. The assumption is that your opponent knows your stats. Otherwise a player with an unusual komi spread has an advantage.

Quote:

What about the case of a person who is fine with 7.5 with Black and 9.5 with White? What is a good bidding strategy for them? Assuming as in your example true komi on average is 7.5, if they bid 8.5 they just encourage their average opponent to take White leaving them disadvantaged and the rarer time they get White themselves they are still disadvantaged. If they bid 9.5 they get a fair game as White but they'll increasingly be taking Black at a greater disadvantage than before. So the rational bid is 7.5, this maximises the chance of getting a game as Black while minimising the damage of getting White (and guards against other players with asymmetrical komi preferences, if we're facing a 6.5 White player then offering 8.5 is suboptimal, assuming blind bidding). This assumes their opponent doesn't know them, if they do (or are familiar with their tournament record) then the bidding strategy changes to 8.5 to have an equal disadvantage to both colours for our player and giving our opponent no preferable option against us so long as they are symmetrically 7.5. So we end up with no advantage at all to a system where komi bidding is used for this person and this is when they are playing someone with standard komi preferences, if they are playing another player with asymmetrical komi preferences the bidding strategy is completely different.

I think Komi Pie works only if preferences are symmetrical, if they are asymmetrical it is a fundamentally bad system for the player.

Edit: I should add all the above is theoretical. I think for at least ranks under dan strength the komi being out by a couple of points won't hugely affect players over the long run.

In terms of the probability of winning, playing with a 1 point disadvantage is approximately equal to playing even half the time and playing with a 2 point disadvantage half the time. (My guess is that the latter is slightly better, but not by enough to tell.) So if the 7.5-9.5 player picks a 7.5 komi, if the average opponent takes Black just a little more than half the time, the 7.5-9.5 player is at a disadvantage.

drmwc · **#83**

In a major international tournament using nigiri, I lost 8 consecuitve nigiris.

If it happens again, I may need to re-think my algorithm when guessing that "It's always odd".

hyperpape · **#84**

Bantari wrote:

Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice.

Yes, and no. As I said before, Kirby and others are free to try and suggest komi pie as an option between players in any non-tournament game (though I admit that servers make it hard for online play). What this discussion is about is adding an annoying and non-optional epicycle to the game, without having proven that anyone, other than a few guys on a message board, actually prefers it.

While we are at it, we could also improve freedom of choice by devising some bidding process for counting procedures, pass stones, ko, bent fours, points in seki...

P.S. Kirby: my reference to Ayn Rand fans referred to the tendency of many Ayn Rand fans to be rather poor at tolerating disagreement and/or accepting that others may not want to partake of their ideology.

billywoods · **#85**

Kirby wrote:

It literally involves saying a single word if you don't care about it, and I can't fathom how saying a single word is all that unpleasant.

You can't fathom how adding more choice can sometimes be a distraction? Have you ever gone into a coffee shop wanting a coffee and been forced to choose between a latte, a cappuccino and a macchiato? Or gone into a restaurant wanting a curry, and been asked to choose between dupiaza, jalfrezi, balti and biryani? Have you ever installed a piece of software that popped up 10 dialog boxes asking you which folder you wanted it installed in, whether you wanted it installed with or without support for Esperanto, whether you wanted to associate the never-before-heard-of file extension .xzq with it, and which font size you'd like it in? Have you ever shopped around for the best deal on some investment - a car or a computer, a new mobile phone contract, or even something as small as a loaf of bread - only to find that you were wasting time looking at completely-different-but-essentially-identical deals?

I find it very hard to believe that you've never been even slightly irritated by an overabundance of choice when you'd have been happy with any default option. We face these irritating non-choices a hundred times per day. They're not distressing or difficult, but they grate, that's all. So I don't like komi pie, and at least for my part it certainly doesn't warrant this long discussion.

skydyr · **#86**

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

Bantari · **#87**

hyperpape wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice.

Yes, and no. As I said before, Kirby and others are free to try and suggest komi pie as an option between players in any non-tournament game (though I admit that servers make it hard for online play). What this discussion is about is adding an annoying and non-optional epicycle to the game, without having proven that anyone, other than a few guys on a message board, actually prefers it.

I think that each time you are given a 'choice' instead of just being told what to do - one can see it as an 'annoying and non-optional' phase of the process. Even mundane things like picking what you want to eat at a restaurant - instead of just digging into (some) food right away.. you know - having to read these pesky menus, sometimes in weird languages and stuff, very annoying. So I still think that what I said stands - its about freedom of choice.

But regardless - I agree, from my pov it also would be annoying, non-optional phase, not necessary to enjoy the game. So I do not support it. But I have absolutely nothing against Kirby trying to implement it in his games. As long as he is not playing with me.

That's all.

Bantari · **#88**

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Bill Spight · **#89**

Bantari wrote:

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

I think that you are confusing Kirby with somebody else.

Bantari · **#90**

Bill Spight wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

I think that you are confusing Kirby with somebody else.

Maybe, but I don't think so... which is not to say that there are not others to whom the above also applies.

snorri · **#91**

Peyrol wrote:

One possible upside is, no governing body or tournament director would need to announce what komi value will be used.

Well, they would have to spend more time explaining komi pie, so this would only become an advantage once everyone uses it and takes it for granted. Until then, it would be a pain in the rear for the TD. For rating systems, you'd have to record the komi used. Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game. Extra procedures would have to be put in place to make it work in formal contexts like tournaments.

For casual games, you can do anything you want and this kind of haggling might be acceptable. Maybe it's useful in bangneki.

ez4u · **#92**

skydyr wrote:

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

If we amateurs think we are playing a complete information game when we sit down at the Go board, well that's just a bit of over confidence on our part. :blackeye:

skydyr · **#93**

ez4u wrote:

skydyr wrote:

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

If we amateurs think we are playing a complete information game when we sit down at the Go board, well that's just a bit of over confidence on our part. :blackeye:

Just because we don't know what to make of the information doesn't mean it's not there.

SmoothOper · **#94**

snorri wrote:

Peyrol wrote:

One possible upside is, no governing body or tournament director would need to announce what komi value will be used.

Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game.

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have often wondered if the counting methods between Japanese and Chinese lead to the difference in komi or if there is something cultural about the style of play.

ez4u · **#95**

Anyway I was thinking about this and my fingers started to itch so I responded in my usual fashion...

Code:

KGS User                                             Games    Wins    Win%
 
Kirby:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents             33      12     36%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents             45      26     58%

twoeye:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents           1836    1080     59%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents           2881    1766     61%

TheCaptain:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents           4738    2327     49%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents           7582    3838     51%

What we see here is the results from even games as listed in the KGS Analytics *.csv file for three users. "Even games" here means where both sides have the same rank (self side rank2 = opponent rank2 for defined ranks, i.e. rank2 does not equal -99). The figures for the Cap' and twoeye are a couple of months old as I used files that were sitting around on the PC from an earlier topic.

We can see that Kirby has a clearly better result playing black (although the number of games is small). Meanwhile both twoeye and TheCaptain have more balanced results. From this I can see why Kirby would be interested in 'paying' for the right to play black more often, while the others would not.

Now this reminded me that even pros show this kind of difference. However, I am pretty sure that Kim thinks that he should work hard to improve his play with black rather than that the rules should be changed so that he gets to play white more often. Of course, I could be wrong about that. Maybe Kim is vigorously agitating for the introduction of komi pie in Korean professional baduk and we just haven't heard about it yet. :scratch:

hyperpape · **#96**

SmoothOper wrote:

snorri wrote:

Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game.

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have often wondered if the counting methods between Japanese and Chinese lead to the difference in komi or if there is something cultural about the style of play.

Well, don't call it Japanese then, but whatever form of territory counting I've used in every single game I've played over the board has not incorporated this.

oren · **#97**

SmoothOper wrote:

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have never seen this happen.

ez4u · **#98**

oren wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have never seen this happen.

It is very common in Japanese clubs that use variable komi systems so you don't have to worry about forgetting what the current komi is. It is less common where the ordinary (6.5 for even games, 0.5 for handicap games) komi is used, for example at the Nihon Kiin playing rooms.

oren · **#99**

ez4u wrote:

It is less common where the ordinary (6.5 for even games, 0.5 for handicap games) komi is used, for example at the Nihon Kiin playing rooms.

Interesting, thanks. I've never heard of that before. I've only been to a club there a few times, and no one did that. We just ended up playing even.

Kirby · **#100**

Bantari wrote:

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Don't worry, in real life I am actually quite well behaved and, perhaps, a bit on the shy side.

Komi pie: will it ever become widely used?

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