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Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
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Author:  Tettamanti [ Sun May 18, 2014 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?

I'm around a 16 kyu player. At our weekly club in Las Vegas, most people that I play are much better than me. Mostly around 4 kyu and higher. Initially, I would take a nine stone handicap against these players and I would still lose pretty bad but it got me thinking; is getting a nine stone handicap allowing me to improve or am I learning to beat someone with a nine stone head start?
My thoughts are that I'm learning how to beat someone with stones on the board, which I believe is a completely different strategy than playing someone straight up.

For the last month or so, I've been requesting a large "reverse Komi". This RK is approximately 9 - 11 stones per rank difference, and usually no more than 99.5 points with no handicap stones on the board. The games are much closer and I think that it's teaching me real strategy.

The question is: Is there any danger to my studies by playing this way?
Author:  Abyssinica [ Sun May 18, 2014 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
It's probably a matter of opinion, but I would play as many even games as possible.
Author:  moyoaji [ Sun May 18, 2014 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
I was just about to make this same type of post, but from the opposite direction. I have been giving high handicaps a fair amount and I was wondering about people's opinions on handicap stones vs. a large reverse komi.

The reason I sometimes like to give a reverse komi is actually to force the weaker player to play a real opening against me. I noticed that one of my friends - who I usually give 5 stones and win half the time - was not learning joseki or fuseki. We started to play games with reverse komis and the results were similar (I won about half the time with a 50 point reverse komi) but I got to give him help with his opening unlike the other games.

I do feel that, in general, the reverse komi favors the stronger player for two reasons: 1. The weaker player is unlikely to be counting during the game, so they often feel behind even when they are ahead making them more likely to overplay. 2. The stronger player can take advantage of their own opening knowledge. However, if the weaker player can count and has a strong opening then they may do better with a reverse komi.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Sun May 18, 2014 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Abyssinica wrote:
It's probably a matter of opinion, but I would play as many even games as possible.


Agree with Abyssinica, try to get your fellow club members to play you in "teaching mode" without reverse komi or handicap. So, just what a normal game would be, with them commenting during the game showing some other possibilities for your moves, what they were expecting and all this (or completely silent and adding this by the end... as long as they don't go into a carnage of killing everything :D) so you get to know how a player ~12 stones stronger sees the board. It will help you much more than winning against reverse komi or handicaps, after all, your opponent faces a huge struggle with any of them and has to play out-of-the-box moves more often than not.
Author:  leichtloeslich [ Sun May 18, 2014 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
I would argue against reverse komi and in favour of handicap stones. The rationale would be that trying to passively secure territory in handicap games is usually the wrong strategy. (Notice that traditionally placed handicap stones are all 4th line and not aimed at making territory directly, but at making influence.)

Instead use your influence; let your opponent invade everwhere and attack. It's from the attack(s) that you will (or rather should) naturally gain territory.

If you just get reverse komi, the "bad idea" from handicap games comes immediately true: you just have a big stack of secure cash (that you don't need to fight for in any way).
Now all you have to do is hold on to that lead.
It feels like this could lead to very passive, defensive play.

Quote:
am I learning to beat someone with a nine stone head start?

You're learning how to use influence for attacking, learning how to fight when you have the advantage.
Author:  paK0 [ Sun May 18, 2014 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
leichtloeslich wrote:
I would argue against reverse komi and in favour of handicap stones. The rationale would be that trying to passively secure territory in handicap games is usually the wrong strategy. (Notice that traditionally placed handicap stones are all 4th line and not aimed at making territory directly, but at making influence.)

Instead use your influence; let your opponent invade everwhere and attack. It's from the attack(s) that you will (or rather should) naturally gain territory.

If you just get reverse komi, the "bad idea" from handicap games comes immediately true: you just have a big stack of secure cash (that you don't need to fight for in any way).
Now all you have to do is hold on to that lead.
It feels like this could lead to very passive, defensive play.

Quote:
am I learning to beat someone with a nine stone head start?

You're learning how to use influence for attacking, learning how to fight when you have the advantage.


This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".
Author:  Shenoute [ Sun May 18, 2014 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
I agree with leichtloeslich.

I've taught the game to quite a few people (and play with lots of beginners) and the same thing occurs again and again : making territory comes naturally and easily to them while distinguishing between weak and strong groups and how to take advantage of them is not. Handicap games with traditional placement of the stones more or less force beginners to learn how to deal with (white) weak groups because every white move is an invasion.

Playing only even games might work just fine in the long run but I guess it would take much longer to develop a feel for using influence and estimating the strength of groups.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 19, 2014 12:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Tettamanti, very good questions. Also, very common questions.

At our local Go club, we have beginners at around your level.
On KGS, of course, many people are at your level (and many others are
of all level ranges).

All three types of games you mentioned -- regular handi, even, or huge reverse komi --
they are all OK, actually. What's important is how you play during each game,
and how you learn from each game.

A bad scenario: you play blitz, 2 seconds per move. No review, or, worse,
you have a bad reviewer. In this situation, it doesn't matter which type of game you asked about.
The results will not be very good.

A good scenario: you play each game seriously, thinking neither too fast (less than 5 seconds per move)
nor too slowly (over 3 minutes for every move). You have a good reviewer who points out
both your mistakes and good moves in the game. You study the review. Rinse and repeat.

With a good scenario, you can learn wonderful things from all three types of games you mentioned.

At your Go club, you can try all three types of games. You can switch between them.

Then, on a Go server like KGS, IGS, Tygem, etc., you can play even games with people
around your level, and take what you've learned from your Go club to good use.

Enjoy Go. :) Please feel free to ask more questions.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 19, 2014 12:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Tettamanti, you also asked about bad habits -- not exactly in those words,
but a similar idea.

Bad habits are like weeds. Without an active force to counter, they naturally
grow and spread like wild fires.

The only people that I know of with absolutely no bad habits in their Go
are the very fortunate few who started Go very young as a child
with a good-level Go pro who is also a good teacher.

Otherwise, all amateurs pick up bad habits. It takes a good teacher to point them
out to us. Again, you can learn wonderful things with any of the three game types
you asked about, if you have a good environment. Conversely, you can also develop
all kinds of bad habits with any game types, unless you have a good teacher.

Good luck.
Author:  oca [ Mon May 19, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
I like playing with handicap stones, often 9 stones for me...
The only thing that I miss is that I like to play a fuseki from the begining.

I Never tryied reverse komi... but I think it will be more difficult for me.
I can see the handicap stones, but I'm still completly unable to estimate points...
Author:  quantumf [ Mon May 19, 2014 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
paK0 wrote:
This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".


Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon May 19, 2014 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Tettamanti wrote:
Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?

I'm around a 16 kyu player. At our weekly club in Las Vegas, most people that I play are much better than me. Mostly around 4 kyu and higher. Initially, I would take a nine stone handicap against these players and I would still lose pretty bad but it got me thinking; is getting a nine stone handicap allowing me to improve or am I learning to beat someone with a nine stone head start?
My thoughts are that I'm learning how to beat someone with stones on the board, which I believe is a completely different strategy than playing someone straight up.

For the last month or so, I've been requesting a large "reverse Komi". This RK is approximately 9 - 11 stones per rank difference, and usually no more than 99.5 points with no handicap stones on the board. The games are much closer and I think that it's teaching me real strategy.

The question is: Is there any danger to my studies by playing this way?


No.

In fact, it is a good idea. Your friends are willing to give you reverse komi, you are getting some good games, and you are happy with the results. What's the problem? :)

You can try other ideas, too, such as free placement of handicap stones, or playing on smaller boards, such as the 13x13 or 9x9.

When I was starting out my regular opponent was a 5 kyu who gave me only 4 stones. OC, I had no hope of winning. ;) Some months later I got a girlfriend and took 7 stones from her father, who was a 2 dan. :) No hope there, either. I also met a bartender, a 2 dan who played a few games with me at 4 stones in the afternoon when the bar was closed.

All of those games with inadequate handicaps did me no harm. After 11 months I won three straight games against the 5 kyu to put him down to playing Black. :)

When I was about 6 kyu I met a 2 dan, who I convinced to let me place 3 stones on the corner handicap point plus 4 stones in a pon-nuki shape in the center, because I had had little experience with play in an open corner. He played a joseki I didn't know, and I made a mistake and killed his corner. :mrgreen:

Anyway, the point is to have fun and learn the game. Good luck! :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon May 19, 2014 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
moyoaji wrote:
I do feel that, in general, the reverse komi favors the stronger player for two reasons: 1. The weaker player is unlikely to be counting during the game, so they often feel behind even when they are ahead making them more likely to overplay. 2. The stronger player can take advantage of their own opening knowledge. However, if the weaker player can count and has a strong opening then they may do better with a reverse komi.


Another reason that reverse komi favors White for high handicap games, where the skill difference is 5 stones or more, is that then White is a much, much better fighter. Handicap stones offer an advantage in fights that mere points do not. Two examples: When I was 3 dan I played against a pro 9 dan with 50 points reverse komi, and lost by around 100 points. (I. e., around 150 points on the board.) A couple of years later, as a 4 dan, I gave 100 points reverse komi to a 4 kyu -- and won by around 100 points. :o

Edit: BTW, I think that reverse komi is superior for small handicaps ( 2-3 stones). For instance, you can adjust komi by 2 points after each game. :)
Author:  Bonobo [ Mon May 19, 2014 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Mh… I always thought that the reason for HC stones is that Black needs to learn how to use their stones, how to keep them connected, how to save them, etc.

Wouldn’t reverse Komi counteract this idea?

Regards, Tom
Author:  DrStraw [ Mon May 19, 2014 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
If done on a regular basis I think reverse komi is a very bad idea if the difference in strength is four stones or more. For occasional use I think it can work if combined with a reduced handicap.

The point of the handicap stones is, on the surface, to provide an even chance for each player. But there is much more to it: they also provide black with the opportunity to learn some much needed skills before having to worry about playing on an empty board. If you watch two 16k playing on KGS you will see that almost every move is less than optimal and many, if not most, are outright mistakes. Now that online go is the norm we have people who are not learning the basics by taking handicaps against stronger players.

My recommendation would be to play a nine stone handicap against anyone more than nine stones stronger and possible add a reverse komi. Once you have beaten an opponent on nine stones then you should play mostly at the correct handicap with an occasional game on reduced handicap and reverse komi. I don't think you should play even games (even with reverse komi) until you have got the handicap down below four stones.

Another recommendation is that is you are playing the same people over the board on a regular basis then totally ignore ranks. Play two game kadobans against each person separately. Each opponent has different styles, strengths and weaknesses. This takes advantage of this and allows you to learn more quickly.
Author:  gowan [ Mon May 19, 2014 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Every high handicap game is a teaching game in my opinion. Any arrangement in a teaching game is OK as long as you are learning. But I think a large reverse komi is hard for the weaker player to use. I have heard that the popular pro teacher Yang Yilun plays on even with his students and stops the game when he feels it isn't reasonable to continue.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Mon May 19, 2014 5:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
quantumf wrote:
paK0 wrote:
This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".


Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.


Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.
Author:  paK0 [ Mon May 19, 2014 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Abyssinica wrote:
quantumf wrote:
paK0 wrote:
This is actually a good argument, but it might also give some bad habits. Having a lot of handycap stones makes all ladders work for you and gives you places to run to, so it might be too easy to get into a mindset of "cut first, ask questions later".


Learning to cut ("cut first, ask questions later") is an important lesson to internalize. If the handicap stones encourage this, then they're doing their job. I'm pretty sure Kageyama says something along those lines ("cut first, ask questions later") in Lessons in the Fundamentals.


Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.


I just feel like these stones encourage cuts that don't work, or rather encourage cutting without verifying that it works beforehand.

But its been a long time since I've played a game with handycap stones, maybe my memory of it is a bit wrong.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon May 19, 2014 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
Bonobo wrote:
Mh… I always thought that the reason for HC stones is that Black needs to learn how to use their stones, how to keep them connected, how to save them, etc.

Wouldn’t reverse Komi counteract this idea?

Regards, Tom


Go players still have to learn how to use their stones. :)
Author:  quantumf [ Mon May 19, 2014 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Handicap or extremely large reverse Komi?
paK0 wrote:
Quote:
Cut when you can cut and connect when you can connect.


I just feel like these stones encourage cuts that don't work, or rather encourage cutting without verifying that it works beforehand.

But its been a long time since I've played a game with handycap stones, maybe my memory of it is a bit wrong.


My cutting is based on experience of similar situations, and sometimes (not often enough) reading. If having lots of nearby allies encourages a player to cut and fight (even if its beyond their reading ability), then great. Go is a fighting game, after all, and handicap stones (should) reinforce that. Nothing like an all-or-nothing fight to push those reading muscles.
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