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 Post subject: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #1 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:03 am 
Oza

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A recent thread on the supposed decline of go in Korea and associated speculation on which country is or will be top dog reminded me something in my notes, which I share here.

Apart from being a tale of bragging rights, it is a Japanese description of Chinese go in the era just before Go Seigen emerged as a go genius in Beijing. I have omitted my extensive notes here, but will just say that care is needed with the word "points", which is here Chinese zi and not Japanese moku. You will also see that the ordinary rules and handicap rules mentioned were not the ones used nowadays in China.

THE GO WORLD IN CHINA

By Segoe Kensaku, Kido 1925

(Translation and notes copyright by John Fairbairn, London 2014.)

The areas I know are, more or less, Beijing, Tianjin, Qingdao and Dalian, and so to use the title “Go World in China” may be a little presumptuous of me, but in the same way that Beijing is the centre of the political world, so, it seems to me, it is Beijing which is also the centre of the go world. That at least is why I venture to write under that title.

Reason for visit to China
The impetus for my trip to China goes back to May 1920. I received an invitation from Akiyama Masanosuke [1], who was then the Civil Governor of Qingdao, but whom I knew as he was from the same prefecture as me. For that reason I was keen to go, but when I did go, I also received a great welcome from Lieutenant-General Oshima Kenichi, commandant of the occupying forces. He was a great lover of go, and so I went to play with him every day. Akiyama and others also came along to play. I stayed there about two months. The scenery was good, the weather was good, and I felt it was a nice place to live.

Trip to Beijing
Since I had just arrived there, General Oshima asked whether I would like to go and see Beijing. He knew Duan Qirui [3], who was then Chief Minister of State (equivalent to prime minster in Japan) and a great fan of go, and said that if I called on Duan I would be sure to be welcomed, and as he would make the introduction himself I should definitely go. Nakamura Zenichiro 3-dan [4], who was just then in Dalian, came to call on me, and Nakajima Hitayoshi [5], who served as an interpreter for the occupying forces in Tianjin, also came. When I told them about the Beijing trip, they said they would speak to Duan as they were friends of his. As he was very accommodating, they strongly advised me to go. So, taking a letter of introduction from General Oshima, I went over to Dalian by the sea route with Nakamura and arrived in Beijing via Tianjin, and put up there in a an inn, the Fusangguan, run by some Japanese people.
Games at the Chief Minister’s Residence.

The next day, accompanied by Nakamura, I called on Duan at the Chief Minister’s Residence. I was warmly welcomed, and played a quick game on three stones. I was also asked by Duan to be sure to stay for around two months. I therefore agreed and after that visited Duan daily there. As this was his official residence, there were several entrances, and every entrance was guarded by soldiers with fixed bayonets. That did not feel very pleasant. But once you went inside, it was warm and genial, with a relaxed and peaceful atmosphere, and apart from the premier all sorts of strong players from Beijing had gathered there, playing friendly games. It presented a scene just like a go club, and I felt some of the charm of China. But precisely at that time there had been a surge in anti-Japanese sentiment, and so Duan considerately arranged to provide Chinese outfits for both of us and advised us to wear them on future visits, as it would be ridiculous to risk harm from hooligans on the way if we didn’t.

Players in Beijing
The players in Beijing at that time generally gathered in Duan’s palace, and those who were particularly strong among them were Wang Yunfeng [6], Gu Sihao [7], Yi Ding [8] and Liu Yutang [9]. Wang was an elderly man of about sixty, and I played him on three stones. Gu was about twenty-three or four and I played him on alternating two- and three-stone handicaps. Yi was also elderly and although we played with a three-stone handicap he was not quite up to that. Wang and Gu played each other even, but Gu seemed to have the better of it.

Apart from them, a Wang Kemin [10] sometimes turned up, but he was an a par with our venerable Toyama Mitsuru [11] and was just there as a spectator. Occasionally, a person called Yang Zicong, younger brother of the Yang Ziqi who had once served as Chief Minister of State, was invited but he was a little weaker and took four stones from me. I also sometimes played Duan on an alternating two/three stone handicap, but really three stones was correct. His shapes were odd but he was a very powerful player.

Chinese go style
On the whole, Chinese go does not bother with the fuseki and is a kind of power go with fighting from the very beginning. Since the shapes are bad, they can come to grief in absurd ways. However, Japanese go players have increasingly gone there and the Chinese have learnt from them, so that the go style has been completely reworked to emphasise the fuseki in the Japanese fashion. Gu Sihao and others have developed a completely japanified and splendid go style. Not only do they use the Japanese style when playing against Japanese players, but they have also given up the Chinese style when playing fellow Chinese players, and so now play Japanese go. They have begun to study go in Japan.

Origins and progress of studying in Japan
The history of how they came to study in Japan is a very interesting tale. It comes from Nakajima Hitayoshi. About fifteen or sixteen years ago, it seems that Chinese people generally felt that the Japanese were weaker at go. Around the time Duan was serving as an officer in the Baoding Military Academy, a fair number of Japanese people were living in that area.
A group of go fans apparently used to play Duan and other Chinese from time to time, and although Duan was still rather weak then, he would always defeat the Japanese players, and so he concluded that the Japanese were as weak as could be. But it so happened that Nakajima went there and when he played Duan it was Nakajima who was the stronger, and Duan was routed. No doubt because of this, the Japanese said they must be stronger and a fight over bragging rights began. With the intention of humbling the Japanese, Duan summoned strong players from Beijing and had them play against Nakajima. By this means even Nakajima was defeated and, seeing this, Duan bragged that the Chinese were stronger. In Nakajima’s opinion, the Chinese were indeed about a stone stronger.

However, needless to say, for the space of about a month he studied by himself until the boot went on the other foot: he prevailed and beat the Chinese down to even or a handicap of Black. Then the Japanese side started bragging. They boasted they were cleverer and so on. Duan was unyielding and so now summoned Zhang Leshan and Wang Yunfeng, the top two players in the country, to Baoding and had them play against Nakajima. He was about 1-dan in strength (and did receive a 1-dan diploma later [equivalent to about 6-dan today]) but just could not defeat either Zhang or Wang. And so Duan again started boasting that the Chinese were stronger.

But just then Takabe Dohei (then 4-dan) rode onto the scene [12] and called on Nakajima. Nakajima felt transported by this chance visit by Takabe. However, he did not breathe a word of the previous goings on to Takabe. He simply told him that China’s top players had just now come to Duan’s place and asked whether he would like to try his hand against them. Takabe said he found that interesting and immediately agreed. So first Nakajima introduced Takabe to Duan and then Duan introduced him to the two national champions, with the result that he played both Zhang and Wang. It is not known what handicap they started off with, but probably both games were even. As they played, Takabe kept on winning until eventually he beat both down to a two-stone handicap.
Consider Nakajima now: a broad smile across his face boasting that the Japanese were stronger. At this point, Duan finally backed down, realising that China could not really match Japan. But, looking at Takabe, he did say that Takabe was probably the strongest player in Japan. Takabe denied this, and said that the Honinbo was so strong he took two stones from him, but Duan said that was a lie and would not readily believe him. But gradually, as they spoke further, it seems he did begin to believe it and finally he accepted Takabe as his teacher, improving from a five-stone to a two-stone handicap.

Welcome for Japanese go players
After that, there was always a great welcome for players from Japan, and in the year before I went, Hirose Heijiro (then 6-dan) took along young Iwamoto Kaoru and they likewise visited Duan in Beijing. During my stay, Duan, through Takabe, also invited the Honinbo, and Shusai eventually went with Takabe. Because the idea was to see what the handicap should be, Duan first played Shusai on Black, but in the space of three days they had merely played 103 moves. Because some lost the patience to watch it and others were now and then summoned away, and because it was felt better to have practice games with the Honinbo rather than watching, this game was halted and people were encouraged to play just training games [13]. The Honinbo stayed for about twenty days and after that Japanese go became increasingly popular, Japanese go players were welcomed and go was all about Japan. At the same time, tastes became so refined that Chinese players were not satisfied unless their opponent was a Japanese high-dan player.

There was in fact a club for Japanese people in Beijing, called the Yamato Club, and if you were a 3- or 4-dan and went there, you were looked after so well that everything was just right for you.

The method of play in China
The way go is played in China has been for each player in an even game to start by placing stones on the star points in opposite corners and then for Black to play first, but recently the Japanese method has been considered better and so it is often the case that there has been a complete change in favour of the Japanese style. In particular the Japanese style is always used when playing against Japanese people.
However, the final count is always done in the Chinese fashion. People like me, for precisely that reason, would entrust the count-up to the other player. The Japanese count-up takes a quite different form.

The result is always half a point
In Chinese go, the result is decided by who controls more or less of the 361 points on the board on the basis of a target of half of those points, that is 180 points and half. This means that if just one side counts up, the other side can see the result without rearranging his own areas. In other words, if my opponent is short by nine and a half points [14], I win by nine and a half points. The result must therefore end in a half point.

Actual method of counting up
As to the actual method of counting up, in Chinese go the areas you control are represented by all of the points you have surrounded plus all your own stones. There are therefore no dame as we have in Japanese go, and it makes no difference to the calculation whether or not stones are put inside those areas. If you count only vacant points, as in Japanese go, it is not possible to toss away captured stones, but in China you add all your stones that form the boundaries of your areas to the vacant points and so prisoners do not have to be kept. Chinese players just put them aside, beside the board, or give them back to the opponent. When I first heard this I was amazed, but once you understand the counting method above it is not so surprising.

There are no jigos in China
As mentioned above, in Chinese go there are no dame, and as the criterion for counting is the number of points of half the entire board, that is 180 points and a half, as well as the result ending in half a point, it follows that there are no jigos, or what the Chinese would call a “drawn game”.

Exceptions
However, if there are rules there are always exceptions, and so we cannot say drawn games are absolutely impossible. As to cases where a drawn game can occur, if, anywhere on the board, a seki appears in which Black and White share a point, and if as a result both end up with the same count of points controlled, that game is drawn. As to why, a vacant point that exists in the seki between both sides does not enter into the count, and so the criterion for the count becomes half of 360 points, that is 180 points.

Number of handicap stones and group tax
Another thing about counting up in Chinese go is that in the case of handicap games, the side giving the handicap stones gets for them an amount of one less than the number placed. In other words, if it is a five-stone game, the count up is done by subtracting four stones – one less – or three stones in the case of a four-stone handicap. The reason for this is that there are no dame and all the stones enter into the calculation. In other words, as the player placing the handicap stones gets the actual profit they represent from the very beginning, he has to give something back.

In the case of group tax [15], if I am cut up into five groups, and my opponent is cut up into three groups, I have been cut up into two more groups than him, and so I have to deduct from my total one point for each extra group, that is two points here.

The importance of last move
Because, as mentioned above, there are no dame, it is often the case that you incur a one-point loss in the endgame if you do not pay attention to the last move, and if that happens in a close game it can affect the result. When using the Chinese method counting, therefore, it is necessary to pay attention to this last move.

Simple explanation of “bent four in the corner”
In Japanese go, there is much ado about the explanation of bent four in the corner, but in China it can be explained very simply. In Chinese go, once you have established your own territories, it makes no difference to the count-up whether or not you fill them up with stones. You can therefore defend against all ko threats that may work and only then play the bent four. Since you can make it into a ko but there are no ko threats, it is clearly dead.

Remarks on komi go
In Chinese go, they do sometimes play games with komi, but we sometimes end up losing games we thought we had won. The reason is playing with the mindset of Japanese go and forgetting that, as mentioned earlier, the criterion in the Chinese count-up is to divide the board into half, and so the komi also has to be reduced by half.

There is still much to talk about, but as I have gone on long enough I will stop here. I expect Japanese go will continue to spread in China, but for where we are now much is due to Duan Qirui’s efforts and we cannot ignore the efforts, even if they were incidental, of Takabe and Nakajima.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: daal, ez4u, jeromie
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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #2 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:53 am 
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Thank you for the interesting article.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #3 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:15 am 
Judan

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John Fairbairn wrote:
By Segoe Kensaku [...] You can therefore defend against all ko threats


Here, Segoe erred. Unremovable ko threats exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #4 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:15 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
Here, Segoe erred. Unremovable ko threats exist.


Here Robert Jaseik erred. And common sense exists.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #5 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:52 pm 
Judan

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Many sacrificed sekis can provide unremovable ko threats, as seen for bent-4 in several Ing Rules booklets. More exciting are those not costing points and discovered during the 90s:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White cannot remove Black's loss-free ko threat
$$ ------------------
$$ | O . X X O . . . .
$$ | . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X . O X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White cannot remove Black's loss-free ko threat
$$ ------------------
$$ | X X X X X X O . .
$$ | O . O . O X O . .
$$ | O . O . O X O . .
$$ | X X X X X X O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #6 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:02 pm 
Oza

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Thank you for derailing yet another thread, which was meant to be about Segoe, not Jasiek.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #7 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:55 am 
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It seems there much to be learned from Segoe on how to promote go.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #8 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:19 am 
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I was struck by the comment that they entrusted the counting to the Chinese opponents. Chinese counting is very easily learnt, arguably simpler than Japanese. Was there some politeness/etiquette going on? Was also struck by the group tax - when did this end, and why?

[admin]
In an attempt to avoid derailing Mr. Fairbairn's thread, I'm moving the group tax discussion to its own thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11278&p=179632#p179632
-JB
[/admin]

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #9 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:14 pm 
Judan

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quantumf wrote:
I was struck by the comment that they entrusted the counting to the Chinese opponents.


It did not surprise me at all because it agrees to my experience at the local club when I first played Chinese opponents suddenly using Chinese counting and to my Japanese opponents' experience at EGCs when they trusted my counting of an area score. I have observed this also for other players with an international background. The cute player seeing a new counting then asks how and why it works. It appears to be normal unless both players have well informed themselves already before the games.

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 Post subject: Re: Segoe on Chinese rules
Post #10 Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:58 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
quantumf wrote:
I was struck by the comment that they entrusted the counting to the Chinese opponents.


It did not surprise me at all because it agrees to my experience at the local club when I first played Chinese opponents suddenly using Chinese counting and to my Japanese opponents' experience at EGCs when they trusted my counting of an area score. I have observed this also for other players with an international background. The cute player seeing a new counting then asks how and why it works. It appears to be normal unless both players have well informed themselves already before the games.


Sure, but this trip lasted two months. It wasn't a one off game or tournament.

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