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bilingualism and go strength
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11607		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  x13420x [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  bilingualism and go strength
I think of learning go as being similar to learning a foreign language. For many people there progression freezes after a certain point. This is often due to psychological reasons not intelligence. Please help me out by participating in my poll. Lets base the ranks on KGS ranks...if you don't know your KGS rank then use the rank comparison chart.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison
Author:  DrStraw [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
I am bilingual in British and American. But I have a feeling you would not count that so I clicked the last option.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
Does speaking with a forked tongue count as bilingual? ;)
Author:  Krama [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
I am can speak 3-4 languages but since they are similar like Brittish English, Australian, American etc. I count it as one.

Then I do speak English, and I am trying to learn German. I will probably try to learn Japanese in the future, but German is top priority now!

So I can speak one language that can cover 50% of Balkan region, English and I am learning German.
Author:  Boidhre [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
Do you mean bilingual since childhood or that someone can speak two or more languages? These aren't the same thing.
Author:  tentano [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
I'm not sure language learning is really the same skill as go, even though I've heard that theory before. There's plenty of decent players who aren't much good in even just a second language. Like with most groups of people, there's quite a lot who are only just good enough with English to get by, and wouldn't score very high in any proficiency test for English.

I've met quite a few players who were completely stuck in just one language, too. Very curious how you can still play a proper game of go, even in real life, with minimal communication. Makes me think we don't need quite as many words as we think we do.

I really don't think there's much of a connection between language and go ability when I can be easily defeated by people who would be hopelessly lost buying groceries outside their home country.
Author:  x13420x [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
well yes it seems judging from the poll results that my intuition about this is wrong.
Author:  Bonobo [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
Too few choices …

[X] I am between 11k and 13k and I am multilingual.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi x13420x, your poll is interesting.
But it is not scientific, because the samples are self-selected.
Also, even this self-selected data pool is too small (currently at 12 votes).
So we cannot really draw any meaningful conclusions from it,
one way or another. It's entertaining, though.
To dig deeper into your hypothesis, we need a more rigorous survey. :)

Another thing I'm very curious about is people's art training,
and whether there are any coorelations to their Go. :)
Author:  DrStraw [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
At present the only conclusion I can draw is that people have a tendency to lose the ability to speak a second language once the reach shodan. All kyu players are bilingual, half the dans are monolingual
Author:  x13420x [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
13k on OGS is roughly 10k on KGS according to rank comparison chart so it does include you. Most people below 10k KGS are prolly beginners and the rank is not so significant.
Author:  Boidhre [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
x13420x wrote:
13k on OGS is roughly 10k on KGS according to rank comparison chart so it does include you. Most people below 10k KGS are prolly beginners and the rank is not so significant.


That could be the old OGS turn based server not the current real time one?
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
Given that this is an international forum, any members who are not native English speakers are therefore at least bilingual, because everyone here speaks English. Perhaps a more interesting question is: Do you speak any languages beside English and your mother tongue.

Personally, I speak Dutch natively, English fluently, German passably and French terribly :lol:
Author:  Amelia [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi x13420x, your poll is interesting.
But it is not scientific, because the samples are self-selected.
Also, even this self-selected data pool is too small (currently at 12 votes).
So we cannot really draw any meaningful conclusions from it,
one way or another.

And let's not forget the many other variables that are te be taken in account. If you are going to compare "skill at learning", you'd have to compare learning curves under similar conditions.
I never took go classes.
Paying my rent and food never depended on my skill at go.
I was never confronted to a total lack of ability to communicate in critical situations because of failing to play the right move.
So what can you get out of comparing my level at go to my level at german?
Author:  Amelia [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
x13420x wrote:
13k on OGS is roughly 10k on KGS according to rank comparison chart so it does include you. Most people below 10k KGS are prolly beginners and the rank is not so significant.

From all the people who have played for years and never got to 10k, or never got past it: thanks for that.
Do give us your rank. Maybe we can find some correlation between go skill and talent for being condescending.
Author:  Shako [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
DrStraw wrote:
At present the only conclusion I can draw is that people have a tendency to lose the ability to speak a second language once the reach shodan. All kyu players are bilingual, half the dans are monolingual


LOL! Nice deduction :salute:
Author:  Bonobo [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
Amelia wrote:
x13420x wrote:
13k on OGS is roughly 10k on KGS according to rank comparison chart so it does include you. Most people below 10k KGS are prolly beginners and the rank is not so significant.

From all the people who have played for years and never got to 10k, or never got past it: thanks for that.
Do give us your rank. Maybe we can find some correlation between go skill and talent for being condescending.

Oh :o I for one didn’t perceive that as condescending, but I guess I sometimes have a thick hide — and, having oscillated between 13k and 11k for the past few years, I fear I have to accept that I’m indeed stuck in some beginner state, aside from the fact that I dearly want to keep the beginner’s mind.
Author:  Amelia [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
/* sorry for kinda hijacking this thread. This is off-topic but I need to get rid of this rant. Feel free to ignore it if you're only interested in the original topic.
Quote:
having oscillated between 13k and 11k for the past few years, I fear I have to accept that I’m indeed stuck in some beginner state

1. After having played for years, you are not a beginner. That is not what the word "beginner" means in the englisch language. You and I may not be particularly skilled at go compared to others but we are not beginners. You teach beginners, damn it. You introduce children to the game. You're skilled enough to make that much of a valuable contribution to go.
2. The road of go skill is a very long one, yes. And the 25k-10k range is only a small part of that very long road. But to dismiss that part of the road, to imply that it's short, easy, and overall too irrelevant to even mention, is both wrong and disrespectful of the people who are walking it.

I'm getting a little tired of it.
I also think that kind of attitude towards DDK ranks is a hindrance for spreading go in general. A game with a large player base will and must have many occasional players, who enjoy the game without necessarily improving their rank much.
Author:  tapir [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
If Go is a language, all dan players are at least bilingual (Go and English).
Author:  tj86430 [ Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bilingualism and go strength
HermanHiddema wrote:
Given that this is an international forum, any members who are not native English speakers are therefore at least bilingual, because everyone here speaks English. Perhaps a more interesting question is: Do you speak any languages beside English and your mother tongue.

That depends on definition of bilingual. Someone could do read and write decent English, but barely understand spoken and talk almost nothing at all. I wouldn't classify him as bilingual, but he could participate in forum discussions.

HermanHiddema wrote:
Personally, I speak Dutch natively, English fluently, German passably and French terribly :lol:

for me: native Finnish, fluent English, very good Swedish (although spoken interaction is quite rusty since I haven't really used it at all), some German, a little French. In all other languages except Finnish (and perhaps English) my ability to read and write is (much) better than spoken interaction. Interestingly Swedish and German I understand better than speak, whereas with French it's the other way around.
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