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Looking for a modern basic joseki book
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Author:  Subotai [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Looking for a modern basic joseki book
I am looking for a book that is a more updated version of 37 basic joseki from the elementary series. A book that ideally keeps to one volume and discusses the major joseki.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
Author:  oren [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
Why do you think 37 basic joseki is not up to date enough?
Author:  RBerenguel [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
oren wrote:
Why do you think 37 basic joseki is not up to date enough?


Probably because it's missing one fundamental joseki

/joke
Author:  oren [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
RBerenguel wrote:
oren wrote:
Why do you think 37 basic joseki is not up to date enough?


Probably because it's missing one fundamental joseki

/joke


Good point. I forgot the title name myself. :)
Author:  RBerenguel [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
oren wrote:
RBerenguel wrote:
oren wrote:
Why do you think 37 basic joseki is not up to date enough?


Probably because it's missing one fundamental joseki

/joke


Good point. I forgot the title name myself. :)


I had to google it to be sure, but 37 is prime and I would have remembered that at least
Author:  Subotai [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
I feel a lot of the moves are outdated as joseki has changed a bit these past few decades.
Author:  Boidhre [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
Do you mean a heavily commented one like 38 Basic Joseki? Or a book showing you variations with minimum comments?
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
Subotai wrote:
I feel a lot of the moves are outdated as joseki has changed a bit these past few decades.


I don't know it is that josekis, at least at the kyu level, have changed as much as it is that news ones have been invented. But I would think that 38 Basic Joseki would be every bit as useful for the kyu player (and most dans) as any modern version.
Author:  Boidhre [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
DrStraw wrote:
Subotai wrote:
I feel a lot of the moves are outdated as joseki has changed a bit these past few decades.


I don't know it is that josekis, at least at the kyu level, have changed as much as it is that news ones have been invented. But I would think that 38 Basic Joseki would be every bit as useful for the kyu player (and most dans) as any modern version.


Probably it's biggest flaw is that it deals almost totally with the low approach to 3-4 and in kyu games the high approach is far more common. In terms of high approach pincers it only covers one of black's responses to the low one space pincer.
Author:  CnP [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
I guess "Essential Joseki" (Yutopian Enterprises) might be considered an updated 38 basic joseki in that it's a single volume survey of joseki - but in practice it's a more complicated book (or at least I find it to be) and I think 38 basic joseki is a good place to start (and Essential Joseki is out of print I think). I haven't read Robert's joseki books but they might be worth considering too, e.g.

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/EasyLearningJoseki.html
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
How about Takao's ?
Author:  oren [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
How about Takao's ?


Quote:
A book that ideally keeps to one volume and discusses the major joseki.


Doesn't keep to one volume, so I threw it out.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
DrStraw wrote:
I don't know it is that josekis, at least at the kyu level, have changed as much as it is that news ones have been invented.


Well, for example, this is no longer joseki:

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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


However, in certain circumstances, it can still be the best move. So I think learning joseki, old or new, can help you to recognize good shapes. When you know details of why a "new joseki" is better than an "old joseki", you understand both better. I think it's interesting, and educational to go through the history of joseki as it changes.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
oren wrote:
Doesn't keep to one volume, so I threw it out.
Yes, but I don't know if Subotai knows about Takao's.
Regardless if he knows of its existence, maybe he'll change his mind about the ideally one volume thing.
Maybe he thinks it's worth it. Better to give him the options to decide for himself.

I happen to find Takao (and its predecessor, Ishida) excellent.
So my preference is to suggest something nice.

Different strokes.
Author:  Boidhre [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
oren wrote:
Doesn't keep to one volume, so I threw it out.
Yes, but I don't know if Subotai knows about Takao's.
Regardless if he knows of its existence, maybe he'll change his mind about the ideally one volume thing.
Maybe he thinks it's worth it. Better to give him the options to decide for himself.

I happen to find Takao (and its predecessor, Ishida) excellent.
So my preference is to suggest something nice.

Different strokes.


I was curious about Takao vs Ishida. Easier for me to get a hold of Ishida.
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
Kirby wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
I don't know it is that josekis, at least at the kyu level, have changed as much as it is that news ones have been invented.


Well, for example, this is no longer joseki:



Sure it is joseki. Joseki means established pattern and it is well established. Whether it is still considered good is a different matter. Perhaps pros may have abandoned it (I don't know but I assume so from your comment) but it is still playable by amateurs because the difference it makes is less than the randomness of their play. So For amateurs I don't think it makes a lot of difference and it can still be considered an established pattern.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Boidhre wrote:
I was curious about Takao vs Ishida.
Hi Boidhre, I find both excellent.

In fact, I find it excellent to have both series. :)
Excellent to study where they agree, and where they differ!

Mr. Bozulich decided to change the format from Ishida's 3 smaller volumes ( 14.9 x 20.9 cm )
to Takao's 2 larger volumes ( 18.2 x 25.7 cm ).

I would've preferred the three, smaller, volume format.

I don't usually find myself in need of a single volume of ~300 pages of ( 14.9 x 20.9 cm ) joseki knowledge in one hand. :)
( Of course, computers are a different story. )
Author:  topazg [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
Kirby wrote:
However, in certain circumstances, it can still be the best move. So I think learning joseki, old or new, can help you to recognize good shapes. When you know details of why a "new joseki" is better than an "old joseki", you understand both better. I think it's interesting, and educational to go through the history of joseki as it changes.


I'm not trying to be unnecessarily antagonising in general, and certainly not to you specifically Brian, but how many semi-common josekis do us participants of L19 really actually understand? I mean, if professional research takes a certain line out of favour and we hear that it's "no longer considered joseki", do we even have the reading skills to fully comprehend why that's the case, even if someone tried to explain it to us?

Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily pessimistic of our Great Go Skillz, but I suspect learning joseki by rote, regardless of new or old, is still probably not all that fruitful an exercise. Certainly many joseki sequences have particularly ugly shapes, because they end up all about precise liberty management, and others are sort of nebulous in terms of what they return for one player, depending on what's going on elsewhere. Sure, it's useful to learn things like "this is only a good idea if ladder X works for you", but yeah .. I'll stop, I'm rambling
Author:  oren [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Boidhre wrote:
I was curious about Takao vs Ishida. Easier for me to get a hold of Ishida.


I do prefer Takao's, since I like seeing the newer joseki outlined a bit. It's probably a bigger difference in Yoda's new fuseki compared to the old fuseki books.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for a modern basic joseki book
DrStraw wrote:
Sure it is joseki. Joseki means established pattern and it is well established. Whether it is still considered good is a different matter. Perhaps pros may have abandoned it (I don't know but I assume so from your comment) but it is still playable by amateurs because the difference it makes is less than the randomness of their play. So For amateurs I don't think it makes a lot of difference and it can still be considered an established pattern.


Yes, it means established pattern, but maybe if it's not good, some might say that it's no longer an established pattern :-)

To be honest, I'm a little confused on it as well, because I've seen distinction in go books between Joseki and an "even" position. So on one hand, I feel joseki != even.

But I've heard pros that have joseki (or the equivalent jungsuk) in their native language say that "this is no longer joseki". So the usage saying that joseki is a living and changing thing still exists.
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