It is currently Fri May 16, 2025 8:26 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Winning Mindset
Post #1 Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:32 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I find that, at times, I can have good concentration at some point in my game.

But as the game is long, at some point, I almost inevitably let up on concentration for a bit - sometimes at a crucial moment. For example, my opponent may threaten the life of my group mid-game, and sometimes, I just play without reading, even if I have been trying to read earlier.

What strategies do you use to maintain concentration throughout the WHOLE game? Or at least for critical moments?

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #2 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:00 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Stronger players are strong because their concentration remains solid throughout the game.
they can do that because they will disregard all reading that is not needed.

I do not read toomuch unless it is the crucial moment. (i am lazy)
I can do that because my reading consist of less variations than weaker players.
Professional's reading consist of even less variations than my reading because they dont consider many moves that i would consider.

I replied before that you consider toomany variations.
If you think less on your variations, your mind will have less stress and can concentrate more.

conclusion: you need to improve your reading in order for your mind to concentrate.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #3 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:30 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
Concentration is probably easier to turn off than on, and the main difficulty is recognizing when those crucial moments arrive. If we can learn to recognize such moments like the ding ding ding at a train crossing, then it is not to difficult to turn on the concentration. Unfortunately, we often don't see the signals until it's too late. What are the signals? One I've learned to recognize is when a string has or might soon have three liberties. ding ding ding! Another is when an opponent is one move off from sealing a moyo. ding ding ding! Hm. I know there are some more... crunch.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.


This post by daal was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #4 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:41 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 1
KGS: 2d
Tygem: 6d
Magicwand wrote:
Stronger players are strong because their concentration remains solid throughout the game.
they can do that because they will disregard all reading that is not needed.

I do not read toomuch unless it is the crucial moment. (i am lazy)
I can do that because my reading consist of less variations than weaker players.
Professional's reading consist of even less variations than my reading because they dont consider many moves that i would consider.

I replied before that you consider toomany variations.
If you think less on your variations, your mind will have less stress and can concentrate more.

conclusion: you need to improve your reading in order for your mind to concentrate.

But what if your opponent(on similar level) is not lazy? :P

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:47 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Relaxation is important. If you strain to maintain concentration, you will almost surely lose it over the course of a game. Relaxation and concentration go together. :)

You also need a dash of patience. For one thing, so that you do not make thoughtless plays. Impatience may be more the cause of thoughtless plays than lack of concentration.

Renowned hypnotherapist Milton Erickson at one time helped to train the US rifle team. OC, you want to focus on the target (a form of concentration). But tightening your muscles to keep the gun still is not the solution. Muscles are not made to be that rigid. Rather, Erickson advised the shooters to relax and to watch and wait patiently as the gun sight moved around. Then, when sight lined up properly with the target, to pull the trigger.

Also see autogenics. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:48 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
andreyl wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Stronger players are strong because their concentration remains solid throughout the game.
they can do that because they will disregard all reading that is not needed.

I do not read toomuch unless it is the crucial moment. (i am lazy)
I can do that because my reading consist of less variations than weaker players.
Professional's reading consist of even less variations than my reading because they dont consider many moves that i would consider.

I replied before that you consider toomany variations.
If you think less on your variations, your mind will have less stress and can concentrate more.

conclusion: you need to improve your reading in order for your mind to concentrate.

But what if your opponent(on similar level) is not lazy? :P


If they are on similar levels, they should get similar results. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #7 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
@Magicwand:
I agree that stronger players may not read out useless variations - in that sense, they may read less.

But I don't think the answer for a weaker player is to read less - then they will just read a little bit of a useless variation - they are still not reading good variations.

Yes, my reading should be improved, though.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #8 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:23 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Bill Spight wrote:

You also need a dash of patience. For one thing, so that you do not make thoughtless plays. Impatience may be more the cause of thoughtless plays than lack of concentration.



I have been losing a lot of games recently where I build up a huge lead and then losing everything due to a single thoughtless move. But isn't playing thoughtless moves a symptom of a lack of concentration. It is at least a failure to concentrate on what you should (like checking to see what your opponent actually played and if they might have actually have had a reason to play there). I often find myself falling into this trap when I am ahead and feel assured of my victory. I start blitzing when I have plenty of time left - maybe in some doomed attempt to speed my way to victory. Unfortunately, I don't have any tips or tactics to combat this impulse other than trying to be aware of it. It does seem to be more prevalent when playing online. It is much easier to click a careless move than it is to remove a stone from your bowl and physically place it on the board. So maybe play your internet games on a real board as you go along?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #9 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:43 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Kirby wrote:
@Magicwand:
I agree that stronger players may not read out useless variations - in that sense, they may read less.

But I don't think the answer for a weaker player is to read less - then they will just read a little bit of a useless variation - they are still not reading good variations.


I have a somewhat different take that Magicwand, but in general I agree, most weaker players -- among whom I would not include you, Kirby -- spend too much time and effort reading during a game.

Reading is not a single thing, and requires more than one skill. Many people assume that it means the calculation of variations. In terms of the calculation of variations, it is well known that, to speak in computerese, humans have a shallow stack. That means that depth first search is easier for humans than breadth first search. All of this stuff about practice reading ladders has to do with depth first search. But with ladders there is almost always only one choice of play.

It is a truism that weak players make bad plays. What happens when a weak player makes a depth first search? Many, if not most of the branches taken in the search are the wrong ones. How does that help? In addition, the wrong choices are reinforced through practice. That is not good. Weak players would do better to make broader, shallower searches. They might find some good plays. :)

Quote:
Yes, my reading should be improved, though.


But which of your reading skills need development?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue May 12, 2015 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:47 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
DJLLAP wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

You also need a dash of patience. For one thing, so that you do not make thoughtless plays. Impatience may be more the cause of thoughtless plays than lack of concentration.



I have been losing a lot of games recently where I build up a huge lead and then losing everything due to a single thoughtless move. But isn't playing thoughtless moves a symptom of a lack of concentration.


Everybody is different. :)

Quote:
It is at least a failure to concentrate on what you should (like checking to see what your opponent actually played and if they might have actually have had a reason to play there).


Having a checklist is not a bad idea. :) Why did my opponent make that play? should be on every checklist.

Quote:
I often find myself falling into this trap when I am ahead and feel assured of my victory. I start blitzing when I have plenty of time left - maybe in some doomed attempt to speed my way to victory.


Well, that sounds like impatience. :)

Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't have any tips or tactics to combat this impulse other than trying to be aware of it. It does seem to be more prevalent when playing online. It is much easier to click a careless move than it is to remove a stone from your bowl and physically place it on the board. So maybe play your internet games on a real board as you go along?


General advice that applies to every board game I know:

Sit on your hands.

;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #11 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:22 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2351
Was liked: 1332
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Kirby wrote:
I find that, at times, I can have good concentration at some point in my game.

But as the game is long, at some point, I almost inevitably let up on concentration for a bit - sometimes at a crucial moment. For example, my opponent may threaten the life of my group mid-game, and sometimes, I just play without reading, even if I have been trying to read earlier.

What strategies do you use to maintain concentration throughout the WHOLE game? Or at least for critical moments?

We struggle with our opponents throughout the game. It is not so much that we lose our concentration at critical moments. Rather, we lose our concentration and fail to play correctly, creating critical moments through our weak plays. So do not look for ways to spot critical moments but rather ways to maintain a steady concentration throughout the game.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, snorri
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #12 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:35 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
But which of your reading skills need development?


From what I gather from your advice, I would think that the following areas need improvement:
1.) I should consider a wider set of moves. If it is true that I am subject to reinforcing bad moves, then perhaps it's because of using this depth first search instead of breadth first search.

2.) Perhaps I need more patience.

Do you agree?

For #1, the only remedy I see is to consciously try to select from a wider set of moves, even when certain selections seem more appealing.

For #2... :scratch:... :-)

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #13 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:35 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
ez4u wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I find that, at times, I can have good concentration at some point in my game.

But as the game is long, at some point, I almost inevitably let up on concentration for a bit - sometimes at a crucial moment. For example, my opponent may threaten the life of my group mid-game, and sometimes, I just play without reading, even if I have been trying to read earlier.

What strategies do you use to maintain concentration throughout the WHOLE game? Or at least for critical moments?

We struggle with our opponents throughout the game. It is not so much that we lose our concentration at critical moments. Rather, we lose our concentration and fail to play correctly, creating critical moments through our weak plays. So do not look for ways to spot critical moments but rather ways to maintain a steady concentration throughout the game.


Good point. Probably I realize the problem after it's a problem.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #14 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:32 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 248
Liked others: 23
Was liked: 148
Rank: DGS 2 kyu
Universal go server handle: Polama
Something I subjectively feel is true (but have no data backing up) is that top competitors tend to fall into two camps: they're either stoic and unflappable, taking setbacks and advantages in stride; or they're fierce competitors who desperately want to win anything with a hint of competition to it.

The rest of us, I believe, wander between emotional states in and between games. We're noncommittal because this is just a friendly game, then excited we made a good exchange, then worried about our pride if we screw up, but then we realize that's bad and become brazen, and on and on.

All these variable emotions make it hard for our minds to optimize how it approaches go. When we're excited, we might become prone to overlook the effect of our opponents moves. When we're worried, we might become too fixated on the effects of our opponents moves. If we get a big boost of dopamine from an early lead, the following 'crash' might leave us feeling distracted and unable to concentrate on reading.

If you approach the game with a level emotional keel, not getting excited at good moves or upset at bad ones, I think it's easier to play a good game. On the flip side, if every game is critical to you, if every move is an opportunity that must be exploited to its fullest, then you're still approaching the whole game consistently, so it's easier to optimize your approach to the game. It's the variation I think that gets us in trouble.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:44 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
But which of your reading skills need development?


From what I gather from your advice, I would think that the following areas need improvement:
1.) I should consider a wider set of moves. If it is true that I am subject to reinforcing bad moves, then perhaps it's because of using this depth first search instead of breadth first search.

2.) Perhaps I need more patience.

Do you agree?

For #1, the only remedy I see is to consciously try to select from a wider set of moves, even when certain selections seem more appealing.

For #2... :scratch:... :-)


For 1.) I can recommend replaying pro games. It may take a while (patience!) until you have build up a sufficient repertoire (probably mostly unconciously) of moves in certain situations but until then you can enjoy their moves and see/learn a lot of other stuff, too.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:20 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
SoDesuNe wrote:
For 1.) I can recommend replaying pro games. It may take a while (patience!) until you have build up a sufficient repertoire (probably mostly unconciously) of moves in certain situations but until then you can enjoy their moves and see/learn a lot of other stuff, too.


Thanks, I like your idea!

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:29 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 706
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 251
GD Posts: 846
Trying to fix this while you are doing it may be like trying to paint the inside of your house through the letterbox on the front door. I'm not saying you can't do it if you are a good enough painter, but...

Well, I can make one meager suggestion, which works if you play online: use a screen capture program to record your own voice during the game along with the moves. Talk to yourself a lot, like the livebloggers, though there is no need to be public like that. This is just for your private study, or maybe with a trusted teacher. But definitely say what you think is going to happen, how you feel, what you think your opponent is thinking, and why you are making your moves. Then, review the recording later.

The reason to do this is that our memories are imperfect. We reconstruct a lot when later new information comes in and are not ready to process information as it comes in live, like in the invisible gorilla experiment. When you review your video, you will wonder why you did not see the gorilla, in this case your opponent's plan, tesuji, surprise moyo, whatever.

Next time, you may see the gorilla.

But you will miss the stormtrooper and the squirrel, because every game is different. So you need to do it more than once. :)


This post by snorri was liked by 3 people: ez4u, Kirby, sybob
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #18 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:22 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
snorri wrote:
Well, I can make one meager suggestion, which works if you play online: use a screen capture program to record your own voice during the game along with the moves. Talk to yourself a lot, like the livebloggers, though there is no need to be public like that. This is just for your private study, or maybe with a trusted teacher. But definitely say what you think is going to happen, how you feel, what you think your opponent is thinking, and why you are making your moves. Then, review the recording later.


I don't know, don't you think much faster than you talk? If you intentionally slow you down by talking, I guess you also hamper your ability to play at your best. Especially pattern recognition happens - as far as I know - completely subconsciously.

There is a reason why a lot of Go streamers sandbag, I guess ; )

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #19 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 2:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 422
Liked others: 269
Was liked: 129
KGS: captslow
Online playing schedule: irregular and by appointment
snorri wrote:

Well, I can make one meager suggestion, which works if you play online: use a screen capture program to record your own voice during the game along with the moves. Talk to yourself a lot, like the livebloggers, though there is no need to be public like that. This is just for your private study, or maybe with a trusted teacher. But definitely say what you think is going to happen, how you feel, what you think your opponent is thinking, and why you are making your moves. Then, review the recording later.



To me, this is a novel idea.
Especially for the online players among us, this may help.

And yes, thought-to-speak ratio (some say 10 to 1) means not all your thoughts will be recorded, but it also means (I think) you grow patience: place your move only after you have spoken out your thoughts.

Thank for the idea, will give it a try.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Winning Mindset
Post #20 Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:45 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
But which of your reading skills need development?


From what I gather from your advice, I would think that the following areas need improvement:
1.) I should consider a wider set of moves. If it is true that I am subject to reinforcing bad moves, then perhaps it's because of using this depth first search instead of breadth first search.


Oh, I don't think that you are reinforcing bad moves. Your choice of candidate moves to explore will be good, even if you miss the best play. Occasionally you will try a bad move, like everybody else. :)

But for effective use of your time and effort, how good is your choice of candidate plays? Suppose that you play over a professional game, at each move choosing the five best candidate plays. (You are not trying to guess the pro's move, but are just picking what you think are the five best plays to explore.) Very often the pro's move should be among your candidates, even if it is not the best play. How often do you miss it? You can test this out with GoGoD's GoScorer software, among others, or even do it yourself. The positions where you miss the pro moves are often good ones to study. :)

Now in a real game you may not always explore five candidates; sometimes you may explore more (edit: and sometimes fewer), depending upon the position. You may also read out the play locally in different areas, even if you do not plan to play there now. (I used to do that as a bad habit when I was a DDK, before I started playing the whole board. After that I kept doing it, since it usually came in handy later. :))

As for patience, I have a couple of thoughts, but I don't know if they apply to you. When I was just learning go I heard that Japanese pros advocated studying go positions for the truth about them, not just with an eye to winning the game. That attitude requires patience, and helps to develop it. :)

Some years ago I played a demonstration game against Nam Chihyung, a replay endgame with coupons. I lost by 2 points. Each play session took about one hour, with a late lunch in between. I was not used to the intensity of the game, in part because my reading was inefficient, as Magicwand says. But the real difference, I felt, came in the second session. I sensed that she had learned more about the position during the first session than I had. Approaching games as learning opportunities, win or lose, helps to develop an objective eye and emotional control.

Now, in your case I have surmised that you are too eager to butt heads with your opponents, and that indicates a certain impatience. You can judge whether that is true or not, or to what degree it is so. It may also be that you see your opponent's territory as bigger than it is. If so, that is a different, but related problem. Developing an objective eye can help with it.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group