It is currently Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:17 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #1 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:16 am 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Since there seems to be very scarce information (and much of it outdated) available in English about the different systems for qualifying as a pro in Asia and as this forum probably occasionally gets visited by people who have either studied there or at least know the systems, I thought we might try to collect some current information here. This is what I've been able to find out so far.

In Japan in Nihon Ki-in there are usually 5-6 new shodan professionals each year and one of the major ways to qualify as pro is to win the yearly professional qualification tournament held each fall. As far as I know, the tournament is a 16 player round robin and the players are selected from the top 10 inseis (as measured by the average ranking from July and August) plus 6 players from a preliminary tournament, which is played amongst the inseis ranked 11-20 and 4 outsiders selected through trial tournaments. Two new shodan diplomas are awarded to the winners of this tournament.

What are the other ways to qualify as pro in Nihon Ki-in, especially from the other brances outside Tokyo?

How does it work in Kansai Ki-in?

How do you qualify as pro in Korea or China or Taiwan?

In Nihon Ki-in Tokyo branch the insei are ranked in 5 groups (A-E), with strongest 10 players in each top group (A-B). Insei play games against each other in their group every weekend and their ranking is decided by the results of these games. At the end of every monthly period the top inseis of each group rise to the group above and the lowest ranked fall to the group below. You have to apply to be an insei when you are 14 years old or younger if you're Japanese and 25 or younger if you're a foreigner. You can study as insei until you are 18 years old (Japanese) or 30 (foreigner). You can try to qualify as pro until you are 30 years old.

How do the insei systems work in Kansai Ki-in or Hankuk Kiwon or Zhongguo Qiyuan and what are the age limits there?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:53 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8845
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
Hi mika,

This is what I heard about China:

In recent years, about 400 amateur male candidates take part in the annual pro qualification tourney. About 100 female candidates take part in a separate tourney.

From their respective tourneys:
The top 20 male candidates make pro;
the top 5 female candidates make pro.

Some time ago, the age limits used to be 17 for men and 20 for women;
in recent years, it's been 25 for everyone.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:52 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
mika wrote:
How does it work in Kansai Ki-in?


I chatted a bit once with Maeda Ryo from Kansai Kiin, and in general it doesn't seem to be fixed. If no insei is strong enough, they can go a year without a new professional. There is no tournament system test like the Nihon Kiin system. They have a "Kenshyu Kishi" which is a method of becoming pro by playing three professionals and winning two.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:08 am 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
oren wrote:
There is no tournament system test like the Nihon Kiin system.

Thanks. Do you have any more information about the Kenshyu Kishi, like how strong are the professionals you have to play and what kind of time settings are used for the games etc.? What about the insei system in Kansai Ki-in, how many insei do they have and how do they train / play and so forth?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:09 am 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
EdLee wrote:
In recent years, about 400 amateur male candidates take part in the annual pro qualification tourney. About 100 female candidates take part in a separate tourney.


Thank you! Do you know how the participants are selected who can play in the qualification tourney?
Do they Chinese have anything similar as the insei system in Japan or do each teacher and school have their own methods?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:15 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8845
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
mika wrote:
Do you know how the participants are selected who can play in the qualification tourney?
Hi mika,

There are "insei" schools in China, where pros teach aspiring students.
For example, Mr. Nie Wei Ping 9p has one. The pro teachers know the levels of the students,
so they would recommend the ones with a chance to take part in the tourney. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:19 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
EdLee wrote:
The pro teachers know the levels of the students,
so they would recommend the ones with a chance to take part in the tourney. :)


Do you mean that each pro gets to select a number of students to participate in the tourney? Is the number of participants at 400 a hard limit or do they allow less or more depending on the teachers? And do you happen to know anything about the tourney format? Thanks again! :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:14 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 378
Liked others: 124
Was liked: 364
Rank: KGS 1d
KGS: wolfking6504
Tygem: wolfking97
mika wrote:
EdLee wrote:
The pro teachers know the levels of the students,
so they would recommend the ones with a chance to take part in the tourney. :)


Do you mean that each pro gets to select a number of students to participate in the tourney? Is the number of participants at 400 a hard limit or do they allow less or more depending on the teachers? And do you happen to know anything about the tourney format? Thanks again! :)


mika, that 400 is not a hard number. There were about 430 in man's U25 qualification tournament in 2014, about 370 in 2015.

The selection process for man's U25 preliminary qualification participants is based on quota given to different entities registered with the Chinese Weiqi Association. Each team participating in the Chinese City League A gets 8, each provincial/army/other large sports organization that participated in national level team competitons gets 5, each of a handful registered dojos (I think Nie's dojo mentioned by Ed above fall into this category) / organizations gets 4. Foreigners can send application directly to the CWA for evaluation. Participants must hold amateur 5 dan or higher certificate.

These participants normally get separated into two groups (in 2015 each group consists of about 170 players) and play 9 rounds of preliminary stage matches. After 9 rounds, the top 50 of each group (so 100 total) together with the top 50 players from last year's qualification tournament (actually only 30 since top 20 would gain pro status and unlikely to decline then return next year to qualify again) will be able to participate in the final 13 rounds of qualification. The 20 player with highest scores gain pro status if they so choose, and top 50 gain status to directly participate in next years final stage of qualification.

As for U25 women's qualification, there is no upper limit on number of participants. Seems to me the only requirement is to hold an amateur 5 dan certificate and be born after Jan 1st, 1990 for 2015. For 2015 there were 101 participants in the tournament. They play 13 rounds of qualification tournament. Top 5 gain pro status.

Here are couple of link (in Chinese) to the announcement of 2015 tournament with some details about the selection and qualification process. The first link contains selection quotas, the second link has details about the tournament, including a table of competition schedule:

http://weiqi.tom.com/2015-05-06/001P/51387136.html
http://www.gyhdc.com/news/2015623/.html

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:09 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
wolfking wrote:
There were about 430 in man's U25 qualification tournament in 2014, about 370 in 2015.

Thanks for the information and links! Alas I can't read Chinese and google translate also failed on the first link, but this was nevertheless very good.

So is this tournament the only way currently to achieve a professional status in China? Nobody over 25 years old can apply?

Quote:
The 20 player with highest scores gain pro status if they so choose, and top 50 gain status to directly participate in next years final stage of qualification.

Is there a reason why someone might choose not to gain a pro status?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:23 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8845
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 2075
GD Posts: 312
mika wrote:
Is there a reason why someone might choose not to gain a pro status?
Yes. Possible reasons:
  • They've decided Go is not their life; they go back to school, follow another career path, etc.
  • (Before they qualify. ) The parents decide it's too costly to continue the Go tuition to try to make pro; they choose another career path. This happens all the time, not only in Go, not only in China, but in all different countries and fields.
  • They realize they can make pro, but their Go career will be mediocre at best -- they have found out from various means (say, from good teachers) they lack the qualities to become a top pro. Instead, they can keep their amateur status, take part in amateur tourneys, and make more money that way than if they make pro. A number of Chinese pros over the years have chosen to give up their pro status, for this exact reason. It happens.
    (Factoid: this is one reason some of the top amateurs in China are pro-level! )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:12 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 378
Liked others: 124
Was liked: 364
Rank: KGS 1d
KGS: wolfking6504
Tygem: wolfking97
mika wrote:
So is this tournament the only way currently to achieve a professional status in China? Nobody over 25 years old can apply?


So far I have not found any case where a person over 25 year age limit has been able to make pro in recent years. There are a few prestigious amateur tournaments (the Evening Paper Cup (晚报杯) being one example, past champions including future world champions Gu Li, Shi Yue, Zhou Ruiyang, Tang Weixing) where the champion can apply for pro status, but under 25 seems still a requirement.

mika wrote:
Is there a reason why someone might choose not to gain a pro status?


No I do not think anybody would decline something they worked so hard for. I put it in that way because the language used in the official announcement was "Top 50 players who satisfy age limit can participate in next year's final stage qualification directly" instead of "Players ranked 21-50 ...". I suppose the CWA did not want people think they would force you to be a pro once you qualified.

[Edit] I just saw Ed added comments about why people might want to stop pursuing a pro life. But I think mika was asking about a player choose to turn down the offer of becoming a pro once they qualified (i.e. scored in top 20 in final stage of qualification). My guess is still no, unless something extraordinary happened in their life.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:06 am 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
EdLee wrote:
Instead, they can keep their amateur status, take part in amateur tourneys, and make more money that way than if they make pro.

This is interesting, so do the amateur tournaments in China have good prizes or is there much opportunity for amateur players to teach etc.? I would have thought that being a pro gives you more options to make money either with playing or teaching. Are there many amateurs in China who make a living playing go full time?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:21 am 
Judan

Posts: 6697
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 434
Was liked: 3673
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
mika wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Instead, they can keep their amateur status, take part in amateur tourneys, and make more money that way than if they make pro.

This is interesting, so do the amateur tournaments in China have good prizes or is there much opportunity for amateur players to teach etc.? I would have thought that being a pro gives you more options to make money either with playing or teaching. Are there many amateurs in China who make a living playing go full time?


Hu Yuqing 8d is a strong Chinese amateur and being so means he gets to play in the World Amateur Championship several times (won twice), something he wouldn't be able to do if he turned pro (which he probably has the strength to do, he's beaten Chen Yaoye 9p for example: http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/896). I think he makes more money with his real world job (manager in a telecoms company IIRC) than he would if he turned pro. His amateur status doesn't prevent him playing in 'pro' tournaments like the CCTV/Mlily cup or Mingren.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:23 am 
Beginner

Posts: 11
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Uberdude wrote:
I think he makes more money with his real world job (manager in a telecoms company IIRC) than he would if he turned pro. His amateur status doesn't prevent him playing in 'pro' tournaments like the CCTV/Mlily cup or Mingren.


Would he have to quit his day job if he got pro status? I think many pros might make more money having a regular job, but not many people probably could pursue go to the level of pros while doing so.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:32 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1508
Liked others: 458
Was liked: 423
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Nowadays, with pros not receiving as much income in game fees, being a go pro does not guarantee a good income. Only the top players earn good incomes from playing go. Thus players might well choose not to turn pro if they have a clear path to a good non-go job. In the past, in Japan, we would see players like Ishikura Noboru (now 9p), a graduate of Tokyo University, abandon a secure management career in a big bank to become a go pro. Also, Sakai Hideyuki (now 8p), winner of the WAGC in 2000 at age 28, gave up a career as a physician to become a go pro.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Professional qualification systems in Asia
Post #16 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:06 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 526
Liked others: 17
Was liked: 78
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
My guess is that one becomes pro if they wish to dedicate their life to the game, instead of just making bank. The hard-core Go players of today may benefit from a monastic approach to Go. Makes me wonder why there has never been any return to the iemoto (headmaster) system in modern Go.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group