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kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13128		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Sebastian Heuchler, a German Computer Science student, created an interesting page: https://kyudan.net

Screenshot:
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2016-04-26 at 16.52.00.png
Screen Shot 2016-04-26 at 16.52.00.png [ 240.22 KiB | Viewed 9730 times ]

From the “About” Page:
kyudan.net wrote:
About kyudan.net
On kyudan.net, you are shown a partial game record of dan players. Your task is to judge their level from their moves. Once you submit your estimation, you are presented with their actual level.

Background and use
This site may be interesting to Go players who would like an unbiased opinion on their progress in understanding the game, as displayed by judging the skill level of other players. If you often get it right or very close, you probably have a good grasp of the situations that occur in the record, and were likely able to spot the players' mistakes.
This kind of excercise is probably a tad difficult to come by for most people, as there are, to my knowledge, no game records available in which the player level is only displayed at the end of the game. Alternatively, your eyes might unintentionally betray you by glancing (even unconsciously) at the displayed ranks, which would skew the results.
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I suppose this is the end product of viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12675 ?
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Uberdude wrote:
I suppose this is the end product of viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12675 ?

Ah, now I remember that thread … and yes, that seems to be it.
Author:  DrStraw [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I tried a few games and underestimated every one of them.
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
DrStraw wrote:
I tried a few games and underestimated every one of them.


And after 2 games I'm #1 on the leaderboard! (4d 5d guessed as 4d 6d and 1d 3d guessed as 1d 2d (or vice versa)).
Edit: and then guessed 8d 8d as 5d 5d, oh dear!

How about this game DrStraw?



Attachments:
p1vsp2.sgf [3.06 KiB]
Downloaded 1185 times
Author:  macelee [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I don't like W30, I think the direction of that play isn't good. How about defending at D11 first?
Author:  daal [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I think I'd enjoy it more if it included kyu games and and had a range of choices such as 20-10k, 10-6k, 5-1k, 1-3d, 4-6d, 7-9d as opposed to trying to guess the exact rank of each player, which for me is pure guesswork.
Author:  maf [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Uberdude: Yeah, that's what I had in mind.

daal wrote:
I think I'd enjoy it more if it included kyu games and and had a range of choices such as 20-10k, 10-6k, 5-1k, 1-3d, 4-6d, 7-9d as opposed to trying to guess the exact rank of each player, which for me is pure guesswork.


I'll probably add kyu games when I find the time. I'm not sure how interesting it is though, I found judging dan games more fun personally, but maybe that's just me.

Regarding the ranges: I've considered that, but that would make a guess that's just slightly off look worse:
For instance, with your proposed ranges, let's say you guessed 3d instead of 4d. So you picked [1d-3d] instead of [4d-6d], which is a larger distance (as big as 1d instead of 6d!).

So the current systems allows you to be more precise. Of course getting it 100% accurate is impossible, but you'll be off by only a bit most of the time.

I've thought about assuming everything within 1 from the 'correct' solution to be a perfect hit, too, to mitigate the problem. So if you guess 5d but it's a 6d, you're still 'off by 0' instead of 'off by 1'. If you guys like that idea, I'll add it when I find the time.
Author:  Fedya [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Yes, but you're a dan player.

I watch dan players play, and I can't tell what they're doing differently from me -- or why their moves are better than mine.
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Well, I think it's a very nicely done site, good job maf! :tmbup:
As I'm a mid-dan myself I'm probably in a good spot to judge moves better and worse than mine. As dan players are a minority adding kyu games will make it appeal to a much larger audience. I think keep the single dan options when the range is 1d - 9d, buckets are too coarse and introduce artefacts as you mention. If it were 20k - 9d maybe you do need them, but even then I think it's better not, perhaps a slider is appropriate UI? Then again some people are averse to choosing an option they see as overly precise (and receiving an average offset of say 5, but 1 if they are better at predicting) versus choosing buckets which means they get more "right" but will always have some larger offset, masking the better prediction ability of others. And call 1 off 1 off, not 0 off.
Author:  ez4u [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
The board is too large to view at once on my iPad, so essentially unusable. Any chance that you can make it viewer sizable?
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
The games aren't presented in the same order to each viewer, are they?
Author:  maf [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
Fair enough! I'll add kyu games and think some more about how to still give vote detailed options. I feel sliders would be poorly usable on mobile devices (I know I have trouble with them all the time), so... not sure. Maybe a hierarchical two-click option (select range first, then select value in range)? The second step there could of course contain values slightly outside the initial range to make it less strict and more fuzzy. This might even help with the thought process ("Ok I know it's an SDK games -click- but which one exactly...? -stare at options-"). Going to research this.

Regarding the board size: I actually did some hallway usability tests which highlighted this as a problem, too, so definitely going to fix this asap. For now, I hope it's possible to scale the whole page down on your device as a workaround.

And Thank you for the feedback (and praise even)!

(Please be patient with me though, I'm continuously having final exams the next few months.)
Author:  maf [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
hyperpape wrote:
The games aren't presented in the same order to each viewer, are they?


The order is indeed random. Basically, the site first picks a random rank between 1d and 9d, then a random game for that rank (which has not previously been voted on by you, of course), so it should be completely different each time you reload the page.
Author:  ez4u [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
maf wrote:
...

Regarding the board size: I actually did some hallway usability tests which highlighted this as a problem, too, so definitely going to fix this asap. For now, I hope it's possible to scale the whole page down on your device as a workaround.

And Thank you for the feedback (and praise even)!

(Please be patient with me though, I'm continuously having final exams the next few months.)

On the iPad none of the browsers I tried (safari, chrome, and opera) allowed me to pinch the screen and keep it at a smaller size.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I asked because I wanted to share my experience without giving away anything. The first two games, I thought "these moves look bad, they must be weak players" (silly, since I'm weaker than any of the players in this group). I guessed low dan, and found that they were all 5 or 6 dan players. The next game, I thought the moves looked reasonable, so I flipped my assessment and said "maybe they're weaker players who play the moves I'd want to play." Again wrong: they were mid-dan players.

Summary: I am terrible at this.
Author:  maf [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I've added little text buttons below the kifu which allow you to resize the board to make it smaller. This hopefully helps, at least temporarily, until I fix it properly. The WGo.js player I'm using offers pretty nice layout options as far as I can tell, but I did not get around to really understand and apply them yet.

By the way, you can also use your keyboard's arrow keys (if present) to navigate.
Author:  maf [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
hyperpape wrote:
I asked because I wanted to share my experience without giving away anything. The first two games, I thought "these moves look bad, they must be weak players" (silly, since I'm weaker than any of the players in this group). I guessed low dan, and found that they were all 5 or 6 dan players. The next game, I thought the moves looked reasonable, so I flipped my assessment and said "maybe they're weaker players who play the moves I'd want to play." Again wrong: they were mid-dan players.

Summary: I am terrible at this.


Since you have an account (I think?), your game history is stored in the database, so I could (at least manually) retrieve the games. However, it is not currently possible to request a specific game from the server - intentionally, as this would allow easily skewing the vote results.

But I see your point. It should at least be possible to share specific games 'read-only', so others can view the kifu, too. Maybe it would suffice to offer a link to download the SGF file currently displayed? That should be very simple to implement and avoid all issues.

By the way, just in case you found it yet, the player has an integrated link to the current kifu, which does not work on kyudan.net due to the above mechanics :(.
Author:  maf [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I added a little download button below the board.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: kyudan.net – Estimate Players’ Rank
I wasn't asking you to do anything. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't spoiling the first three problems.
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