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joseki question
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13748		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  globulon [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  joseki question
My question is, why is this white angle contact play NOT joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]



The reason I ask about this, is that 1) I recently had it played against me, and 2) strangely it is joseki for almost all the other pincers, 1 space high and low, 2 space high, 3 space high and low. It's only the 2 space low pincer that nothing is given in my big joseki dictionary. There are only 9 occurrences in my database. One of them was kitani but it seems clear that for some reason this reply to this particular pincer is taboo.
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: joseki question
I am sure that there are circumstances when it can be played, but after this sequence black cannot expand along the top like he can with a high pincer, so right away is one reason it is not optimal.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 6 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Author:  skydyr [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: joseki question
Another consideration is that, because white can't expand on the top due to :b3: being low and closer...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 6 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


A move like :b9: is pretty sente against the corner, calling for white a to stabilise the group. Black can likely then seal white in, or if white omits it, get the white group running.

With a high or farther pincer, white has miai between A and a move to the right to live, whether a slide or one space jump.

Note also that :w4: is a pretty defensive move, generally played because white can't fight favourably in the corner and adjacent area due to black strength or other considerations, so white wants to settle quickly and avoid becoming a target.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: joseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Transposition
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 7 6 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This sequence is a transposition of the following sequence, . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 4 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


which is joseki.

So perhaps the reason it is not joseki has to do with this reply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Non joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Above my pay grade. ;)
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: joseki question
Bill Spight wrote:

So perhaps the reason it is not joseki has to do with this reply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Non joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .[/go]


Above my pay grade. ;)


I looked at this before replying. This move is joseki for other positions of the pincer. But I think it is harder for white to reply at a now for much the same reasons as earlier and so he must play b. That's why I chose to comment on the simpler variation. I think this one has the potential to get much nastier for white.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: joseki question
DrStraw wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

So perhaps the reason it is not joseki has to do with this reply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Non joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . 2 . . 3 .
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .[/go]


Above my pay grade. ;)


I looked at this before replying. This move is joseki for other positions of the pincer. But I think it is harder for white to reply at a now for much the same reasons as earlier and so he must play b. That's why I chose to comment on the simpler variation. I think this one has the potential to get much nastier for white.


Yeah, where is White's base?
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