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| Game plan as white? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15390 |
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| Author: | daal [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Game plan as white? |
During the last month or so, when playing black I've been following a game plan which is to build my positions as much as possible until the fighting starts. This means that I don't make the first approach move, but rather play on "my" corners and "my" sides until my opponent comes in. Since I invariably have more stones in that area, it seems I have an advantage from the start, which I often can keep throughout the game. My record as black this month has been hovering around 70%. As white however this plan doesn't seem to work, as either I get behind in a moyo building contest, or I end up approaching first instead of building further. Needless to say, I haven't been winning as much. I'm curious to hear if any of you have a particular game plan that you try to follow as white. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
If you don't want to follow black's game plan, you can try early approach moves as white. (Your second stone against 4-4 or even your first white stone if black plays 3-4). I for one like the games that follow much more, than playing against Kobayashi, Chinese, etc. openings. |
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| Author: | daal [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
It's not that I don't want to follow black's game plan, it's just that I want to have one of my own. I have tried upsetting black's game plan as you suggest, and it does have the advantage of not letting black play the game he had planned, but these games typically wind up as slugfests, which I tend to lose. I'd like to find a way to draw black into fighting on "my" side first, but it doesn't seem to work that way if black doesn't want to. 
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
it's hard to build a big moyo as white, since you're playing second. I like to keep things split up, and prevent black from getting a big shape. if both sides have fewer points in the end, komi is bigger relative to the end score. |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Kirby wrote: if both sides have fewer points in the end, komi is bigger relative to the end score. That's not true with area counting, so my guess is that it's not relevant even with territory counting |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Not true Tryss, not a (significant, aka >0.5) difference area and territory scoring here. Those not in the know  always seem to defy this fact  (The important thing is the relative size of the komi to the score difference) |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi daal, Quote: but these games typically wind up as slugfests, which I tend to lose. Seems you've already identified one factor.If we tend to lose slugfests -- we can have some educated guesses for the reasons -- and we choose to avoid slugfests, then how will we ever improve at slugfests ( and deal with said reasons ) ? We have our knowledge gaps, as do our opponents. If we tend to lose slugfests, it may mean we have more knowledge gaps in slugfests than our opponents around similar levels. Addressing these gaps is a way to improve ( and to win more slugfests against similar level opponents ). |
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| Author: | daal [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Hi daal, Quote: but these games typically wind up as slugfests, which I tend to lose. Seems you've already identified one factor.If you tend to lose slugfests -- we can have some educated guesses for the reasons -- and you choose to avoid slugfests, then how will you ever improve at slugfests ( and deal with said reasons ) ? I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that 
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi daal, I see; makes sense. And the knowledge gaps idea still holds: slugfests are exposing certain gaps for you.
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Tryss wrote: Kirby wrote: if both sides have fewer points in the end, komi is bigger relative to the end score. That's not true with area counting, so my guess is that it's not relevant even with territory counting Why is it not true? If the score without komi is 100 to 110, komi matters less than if the score without komi is 60 to 65, doesn’t it? If you have more live stones on the board, the point value is less and komi is more significant, right? |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
At the end of the game: If white plays last margin of victory is the same. If black plays last area scoring one more point to black. (It is not like you suggest half the difference in territory scoring.) I did not explain my view very clearly in my previous post. A second try: If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 70 to 70 (77 with Komi) points on the board you are 10% behind white. If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 35 to 35 (42) points you are 20% behind white. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Gomoto wrote: At the end of the game: If white plays last margin of victory is the same. If black plays last area scoring one more point to black. (It is not like you suggest half the difference in territory scoring.) I did not explain my view very clearly in my previous post. A second try: If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 70 to 70 (77 with Komi) points on the board you are 10% behind white. If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 35 to 35 (42) points you are 20% behind white. Yeah, I agree with you. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: If we tend to lose slugfests -- we can have some educated guesses for the reasons -- and we choose to avoid slugfests, then how will we ever improve at slugfests ( and deal with said reasons ) ? Well worth repeating.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
daal wrote: I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that Two words to the wise: Sabaki and Shinogi.
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Gomoto wrote: If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 35 to 35 (42) points you are 20% behind white. Yeah, 35 to 36 (43.5) is different compared to 65 to 66 (73.5). Except that's also the difference between 180 points to 181 (188.5) and 180 points to 181 (188.5) with area counting (if there's no seki) |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Tryss wrote: Gomoto wrote: If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 35 to 35 (42) points you are 20% behind white. Yeah, 35 to 36 (43.5) is different compared to 65 to 66 (73.5). Except that's also the difference between 180 points to 181 (188.5) and 180 points to 181 (188.5) with area counting (if there's no seki) Point is, there are different types of games, and sometimes the fixed value of komi can make more of a difference. If both sides have tons of captures with lots of points on both sides, 7.5 points is less significant than the case where neither side has many points (eg. Not many captures, lots of small living groups on each side). If you’re white, aim for the latter type of game. If you’re black, aim to make big points and make the komi irrelevant. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Maybe I’m wrong. I thought about a board split in half with black having 8 more points. If you split both groups, they lose the same number of points. I’m not sure one way or another, now. From another perspective, moves in the opening are worth more than moves in endgame, so maybe trying to get to endgame faster makes komi worth more. Maybe that’s the point 
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| Author: | daal [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Bill Spight wrote: EdLee wrote: If we tend to lose slugfests -- we can have some educated guesses for the reasons -- and we choose to avoid slugfests, then how will we ever improve at slugfests ( and deal with said reasons ) ? Well worth repeating. Bill Spight wrote: daal wrote: I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that Two words to the wise: Sabaki and Shinogi. I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. 
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Play weaker players, then?
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Game plan as white? |
Or a gun ?  "If I lose this game, I'll kill you, and if I'm not enjoying it, I'll kill your familly. Have fun and good game! " |
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