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Estimating strength and "interesting" game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2697		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mnemonic [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Estimating strength and "interesting" game
I've been thinking about this recently and my question is: how reliably can you estimate the strength of a player by either reading a kifu or playing a game against him? (I'm especially interested in other DDK’s experience and if they are similarly to mine)

When either playing against, or studying kifus of players either weaker or of the same strength as mine, I’m usually pretty accurate. (Though I have probably played 80% of my games against DDK's so I have experience in that field :razz: ) Also, I have taught about 5 people go so I'm also pretty confident in the 30-20k range.

I know for a fact that most people here have a problem with estimating a ddk's strength (at least by kifu). (Honestly: I felt insult that most people thought game #6 was 12k :shock: . I could've easily given either player 7 stones and win. I would go as far as to bet money on 9 stones)

This completely changes once I get into the sdk range. If I look at a 8k vs 8k kifu I am amazed at how perfect ever move seem and how elegantly they navigate difficult situations. (Yes, you may laugh now). I honestly think I couldn't tell the difference between a 5k and a pro game.

Over the board I still retain a unit of measurement depending on how many handicap stones I have.
With my local 5 and 6k a game usually looks like this: I get 4 stones and we fight across the board until he has enough aji to make his move. Either I make a mistake and lose in the middle game, or I keep my advantage and win by a few points.
Against the local 2k: I get 9 stones and desperately try to keep all my groups alive. If I don't blunder in the middle game hey demolishes me in the endgame. (Recently I have a winning streak so we are down to 8 stones :razz: , but it's even harder there :sad: )

Anything above 1k enters a fuzzy area where I have no Idea. All I know is that anything I do get's cut, killed or choked. If I ever get sente my opponent’s stones are usually ironclad with no weak spots while my formation has gaping holes :shock: . If you don't count playing style I don't see a difference between our local 1k (He usually plays 3 DDK at the same time while bragging, boasting and smack talking) and the Chinese 6d "close to professional level" KGS 9d (He just quietly places a stone and then looks at you with a blank face, which could either mean awaiting your next move of profuse boredom)

One of my main reasons why I want to get stronger is to at least appreciate (when not understand) professional level games. For example this game was praised as especially good in my club, but I just didn't understand a thing.

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=624[/sgf-full]


Can someone explain this game? (And is it any good or did I just waste your time?)

Mnemonic

Edit: one player is our local Chinese 6d

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Author:  CSamurai [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
It's fast.. 20 second times..

But accepting that it's quite.. impressive. When a 5k tenukis, it's to play in the wrong place. When a 9d tenukis, it's to play in the place that will be right 50 moves from now.

The early ko fights are amazing, usually you don't get much ko play that early due to the lack of threats, but each player treated the upper right like it was disposable, because it wasn't the largest thing they were playing for.

Both players were knife edge attack and defense through the whole middle game, with the center being a blend of groups attacking each other.

There were some good haengma sequences through this game, and a lot of interesting shifts in the flow and balance of the board.

Very cool game.
Author:  ethanb [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
It's much easier to estimate the strength of players around your level.

Too weak and they all blur into "wow, that's awful." You can't really tell easily between "able to give 9 stones" and "able to give 16 stones" - you just think "man, I would crush this guy to Jello."

Stronger players... yeah, probably about the same. I could look at any pro's game and think "wow, he would crush me to Jello!" :)

As for the game you showed... it's a rare case where players at or almost at pro level are ACTUALLY TRYING to crush each other to Jello. I totally agree with Milan Milan's comment that they're not go players at one point, they're fist-fighting.

I'm assuming there's a tesuji to live involved with the clamp in the upper right. I can't find it. It looks like black missed the possibility of the ko (or decided that continuing the opening was bigger.) Once white wins the ko I can't figure out why he decides not to kill the group. It looks like when black takes the first ko back, white can connect. If white connects the group is just dead. So the clamp HAS to add some aji that I just don't see. White plays away and allows the ko to restart because he thinks the move on the top side is bigger (or because the group can live anyway from the clamp but I don't see it at all.) I don't know... I prefer to be solid where possible. But I'm not 9d!

But in any case once white wins the early ko black knows he's behind - that's why he tries to "shake the board" by making the game as complicated as possible. If he can give his opponent six different things to think about, he might overlook something and let black get an advantage. And it works in this game. :)
Author:  Laman [ Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
another interesting thing is when you try to play an even game with unknown opponent - from my experience, you would estimate your opponent's strength much closer to yours than it really is

or when you are paired against a stronger player at a tournament - you usually play closer game than you would think and it is good for your self-confidence to see that stronger players are still playable. (of course this is partly because it is hard for stronger player to do his best against weaker opponent)
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
Personally, I have the hardest time judging stronger players' games.

If I knew that their moves were better than mine, I would play them (their moves) myself in my own games :-p
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
one intresting thing i noticed when i watch other people playing is that i see their simple mistakes and think they are weaker than i am but if i play them 1-1 i lose.
i know that they are not playing right move but there are something that is more important than what i see.
i think it is "STRENGTH".

many koreans that i know really dont study joseky or shape. but they somehow overpower my textbook style knowledge by stronger fighting.

i think lower ranked beginner will have taugher time with such style.
Author:  PROVOK3 [ Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Wow
I am not going to lie that game was @#!$ing awesome, although it did not "look" like a go game at all. Out of curiosity: are both players Korean? I can't imagine amateurs from any other country playing like this.
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
Bigbadwolf is Andy Liu, who's one of the top players in the US.
Author:  Mnemonic [ Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
And the other player is a Chinese amateur 6d. Although he currently resides in Dresden, Germany (and is the reason why our team is winning matches again :mrgreen: )
Author:  Koroviev [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
Mnemonic wrote:
And the other player is a Chinese amateur 6d. Although he currently resides in Dresden, Germany (and is the reason why our team is winning matches again :mrgreen: )


Cool! Dresden is one of my favourite cities, wish I'd known there were some go players around when I was there this summer.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Estimating strength and "interesting" game
Mnemonic wrote:
And the other player is a Chinese amateur 6d. Although he currently resides in Dresden, Germany (and is the reason why our team is winning matches again :mrgreen: )


I can't express how awesome it would be to have someone that strong at the local club
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