Life In 19x19
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Bad beat stories.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=356		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Bad beat stories.
I think it's safe to say that all Go players have, at some time or another, experienced a "bad beat", a poker terminology for a situation where a person who has a vastly superior hand over his opponent(s) loses anyways, despite the odds. So the analogous situation for Go is where a person who has a vastly superior position/major lead over his opponent loses anyways. These kind of games also tend to be more memorable than others (0.5 points come a close second?).

So what are some of your bad beat stories? If it was played online, be sure to post the SGF if you still have it!

I'll start with a recent one (less than a few weeks ago). I was playing an online game against aguilar1 (Fernando Aguilar) in a 0.5 komi game where I took Black on one of my 5d accounts.

Up to move 88 things were looking okay for me and I was holding up on my own. I didn't make any major mistakes, but did play a few slack moves here and there so I was behind by a teeny bit. Sirens went off on my 88th move though, which I played on the last second of my byoyomi period. It went from this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Few moves later
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X . . X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . O X X O O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X . . . . O . W . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which had me sink further behind, bad news since endgame is my weakest area. Ah, but that's only the beginning. As we entered endgame, I tried to play more efficiently to try and make up for my losses on the lower right. I was also a bit, again as they say in poker, "on tilt". Needless to say, I neglected an important group and ended up in a situation where my central group was in major danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 138
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . X X X . X O O O . |
$$ | . X X X . . . O X X O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . O O O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , O O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . W . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O . X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O X X O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X X O . . . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O O X . O X . O . X . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . X . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . O . O . . O X . X O O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So not only was I ~10+ points behind, but now I was about to die extravagantly with 150+ people watching. Fantastic. In fact, all White had to do was let me live in gote and the game was his anyways, I guarantee it. /men's warehouse

I'll leave the SGF here so you can see the conclusion, kibitz and my ID removed :cool::


So tell me your stories :D.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
In your defense, Fernando Aguilar does like playing this way and going killing stuff :D

This accounts for a large number of my games :P

For example, I'd made a mess of one of my DGS games, my opponent got greedy, handed me a 15-20 lead by letting me invade his only decent territory, and then in trying to play an efficient endgame I totally forgot my group at the bottom needed defending if it couldn't get out of trouble through shortage of liberties. My opponent hadn't forgot, and just killed it!
Author:  tj86430 [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Being avid poker player, I'm very familiar with Bad Beats :lol:

However, I find it odd to use the term with Go (or any other games with complete information), since there is no element of luck involved. If you lose from a winning position, you have yourself to blame for it, whereas in Poker Bad Beat refers to unlucky cards (usually losing after getting all-in as a significant favorite) and not your own bad play.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
tj86430 wrote:
...since there is no element of luck involved...

Sometimes I wonder. If I had read your post a year ago I'd wholeheartedly agree that there is absolutely no element of luck whatsoever in Go. However, now I leave myself with a bit of skepticism.

In the chaos after 138, one interesting comment I read in the kibitz was "let's see how well b read this out.". Did I read it all out? No sir. My aji senses were tingling, and I knew we were both at the entrance of a dark tunnel once he decided to commit and go for the kill. For me to somehow end up victorious at the end of the tunnel...to me, feels like a situation where luck was involved (but in a different sense than poker).

...or maybe I need to hurry up and sleep. But hopefully this will bring up even more interesting discussion.
Author:  tj86430 [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Helel wrote:
If you find it odd you may wish to reconsider your (in my view) all too restricted definition of luck.
(or you may not, it's up to you if you want to be unreasonable ;-) )

We have discussed similar view's many times over in the poker community. Of course, if you like, you can consider that e.g. 100 meters sprint has an element of luck - Usain Bolt may have a really bad day or even an injury. But I'd like to stick to more restricted definition.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Oh, ... you bet.

I played White and started quite okay-ish, granting my oponent a side and me a moyo, which he kind of invaded:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1.png[/img]


I killed and he invaded again:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2.png[/img]


I completely screwed things up:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3.png[/img]


..and oversaw a double-atari later on:

[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4.png[/img]


In the end, I won by 0.5 points because he didn't fought out a Ko.



Luck? For sure!
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Tue May 11, 2010 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
I had to dig this one out... Actually I wanted to post this game in the Embarassing-Go-Moments-Thread... Anyway I was Black and screwed up a won game the worst way imaginable. Enjoy :cry:


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go1_2.png[/img]


High chance of winning.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go2_2.png[/img]


In my opinion, won game.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go3_2.png[/img]


First big (_B_I_G_) screw up, but still ahead.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go4_2.png[/img]


30 sec SD for me / 10 minutes for my oponent.


[img]http://www.letsshareit.net/files/53/Go5_2.png[/img]


Enormous screw up, resignation.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
This is a game that I played a few years ago, when I was 2 dan. My opponent was 6 dan.



Of course, given the strength difference, that's not an impossible position to come back from, but still :)
Author:  topazg [ Tue May 11, 2010 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
That's an evil joseki that one Herman :P
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 12, 2010 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
topazg wrote:
That's an evil joseki that one Herman :P

Another interesting variation of that joseki that's full of twists and turns is this one, though this variation is not joseki, but a very complicated hamete. I've played it quite a lot a year ago or so, but because there are so many variations where both sides can easily screw up, I think I've had it blow up and destroy my position more often than it did my opponent's :-?:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Harleqin [ Wed May 12, 2010 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
I'd be interested in the correct refutation of that, Herman. ;-)
Author:  Li Kao [ Wed May 12, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
I'm white. One of my friends (1k) commented on this game(before I lost) "I puked a little" :P

I killed him yeah :)
Attachment:
File comment: Ahead by 100 Points :)
Loss190-1.png
Loss190-1.png [ 119.54 KiB | Viewed 12038 times ]

Arghhhhh. Now he is ahead by 190 Points :'(
Attachment:
File comment: Behind by 190 Points :'(
Loss190-2.png
Loss190-2.png [ 123.92 KiB | Viewed 12038 times ]

Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed May 12, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Araban wrote:
topazg wrote:
That's an evil joseki that one Herman :P

Another interesting variation of that joseki that's full of twists and turns is this one, though this variation is not joseki, but a very complicated hamete. I've played it quite a lot a year ago or so, but because there are so many variations where both sides can easily screw up, I think I've had it blow up and destroy my position more often than it did my opponent's :-?:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think the correct play from here is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 0 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the variation that was given in Kogo's when I looked it up two days ago. However, I've also had a 6d friend say that the refutation was :b7: at 'a' in the first diagram above, which threatens to net one of the two groups. However, when another friend of mine and me analyzed it later, we were unable to find how it worked if white played his next move to save his five-stone group, so I'm not sure that he was correct.
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 12, 2010 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Dusk Eagle wrote:
However, I've also had a 6d friend say that the refutation was :b7: at 'a' in the first diagram above, which threatens to net one of the two groups. However, when another friend of mine and me analyzed it later, we were unable to find how it worked if white played his next move to save his five-stone group, so I'm not sure that he was correct.

As I've mentioned earlier, I don't know the hamete very well and have only scratched its surface. However, a while back I have seen Lee Hajin 3p go over this hamete very extensively with a friend of mine at the SGC after I played it on him (lol), and I'm pretty sure she never suggested :b7: at 'a' in your diagram for a move, so maybe that's a sign that it's not a refutation? I'm sure there's still a wealth of variations for that move though, so no disrespect to your 6d friend and I still reserve judgment - just mentioning an observation.
Author:  Violence [ Wed May 12, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
I've been told that 7 is also correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a and b are miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 12, 2010 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Violence wrote:
I've been told that 7 is also correct.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a and b are miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm...maybe I overlooked when she went over it :-?. Ugh, and I had this excellent KGS lecture from willzhang when he covered this hamete too, can't find it though. If I have time, I might do some KGS archive digging cause now I'm curious.
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 12, 2010 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Here is when willzhang went over it (it was in summer '07), stripped out trash kibitz and left only willzhang and a few others' comment in there, which isn't much but I think there was audio so perhaps that's why there weren't so many texts from willzhang:


Pinpingho, who I don't know much about but seems he's AGA 6d, also covered it just prior to willzhang's lecture - stripped out the variations that didn't pertain to the hamete, but taking out all but the relevant kibitz would take too long since a lot of variations were covered so I just left that alone:



In any case, the empty triangle move wasn't brought up in either demonstrations. Not dismissing it, but just curious if you guys know of a textbook or a more authoritative lecture/demo on the hamete that contained the move.
Author:  fwiffo [ Wed May 12, 2010 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
Jesus, I'm gonna have nightmares you guys. I don't ever want to be a dan player if it means facing hamete like that...
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed May 12, 2010 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I know what joseki I'm aiming for if I ever play against fwiffo :twisted:
Author:  topazg [ Thu May 13, 2010 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad beat stories.
fwiffo wrote:
Jesus, I'm gonna have nightmares you guys. I don't ever want to be a dan player if it means facing hamete like that...


I told you it's an evil joseki. It's why as White I always fix one of the cuts instead of descending. It's simpler that way :P

Horrible yucky thing!
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